Lightweight Starter Batteries: The Best Choice?

Hello,

Can anyone here assess the everyday usability and winter suitability of these batteries?
http://www.trackandstreet.de/shop/catalog/browse?shop_param=shop_overview_pager%3D1%26cid%3D20%26

Despite the potential issues with confirmation (as there are also sellers there), I find the "cold climate B2317 & B2317RP" batteries listed on page 1 to be quite interesting, especially considering their cold-cranking current of 475A @ 7.7 kg (instead of the good 18 kg), all for €185.

But I'm a bit skeptical about the actual cold start performance...
The standard batteries have approximately 330 or 540A according to DIN or EN standards, and the measurement conditions, as far as I know, are:
-18°C battery temperature, 30 seconds of load, and now here's the small difference: a final voltage of 9 or 7.2 V. This "slight" difference in final voltage almost doubles the nominal value of the cold-cranking current!
Braille seems to be measuring differently at -20°C. This is still somewhat challenging for the battery, but I can't find any data on the remaining voltage!
If Braille, for example, drains his batteries down to 5 volts, that would correspond to an estimated 150 A according to DIN standards -> that would be approximately half the capacity of typical TDI batteries, and at the latest in winter, he would likely experience a rude awakening.

Okay, this is a bit off-topic: In my Citroen Saxo VTS, I have a motorcycle battery that weighs 8.5 kg and has a capacity of 20 Ah. This saves a significant 7.7 kg in weight. The original battery was an Arktis battery that was 8 years old, weighed 16.2 kg, and was nearing the end of its lifespan. Although it started perfectly when fully charged, it would discharge completely within 2 days, even when disconnected.

The 1.6 gasoline engine started easily and without any problems, even in slightly freezing temperatures (-3 degrees Celsius), after standing outside for half a day, thanks to the motorcycle battery. However, it is usually kept in a frost-free garage.

Hello, I can't say anything about the "Batt" you mentioned, but I know about Hawker batteries for motorcycles that have a much higher starting power than the standard ones. For €150, that would be a high-quality alternative using pure lead.
http://www.akkuonline.de/index.php?cat=c425_Odyssey.html&XTCsid=b257048fcd503cbe9fc6b10863545549

Otherwise, it is often said that the amount of lead used contributes to the quality.
"Motorsport doesn't necessarily mean it has to be durable for a long time. One race or one season are more typical timeframes."

I myself participated in a local amateur rally in 1994/95 with a Golf 2 GTI 16V. For safety reasons, the battery was placed inside the car, directly behind the driver's seat. We used lead-acid batteries with 17 Ah, but they often weren't enough for more than one engine start. Could it be because these batteries were mostly very old?

Before the race, a portable battery was connected to an external charging socket. After the engine started, it was disconnected again. A benefit of the regulations at that time was that drivers were allowed to keep the engine running from the starting grid until the signal to start. Today, this is prohibited even in the lowest amateur racing events.

christians wrote:

Racing doesn't necessarily mean it has to be durable forever.

One race or one season are more likely to be the benchmarks. That could, of course, be the "minor" disadvantage of such lightweight batteries...


But what if, in Central European climate regions, you simply install a battery that is, according to the original equipment manufacturer (OEM), "too small" in a TDI engine?

From our battery expert article:

During the cold start in winter of a properly functioning TDI engine, the battery must be able to withstand loads of approximately 5 seconds of preheating at 60 Amperes and 2 seconds of cranking at 300 Amperes. In total, this example results in approximately 900 Ampere-seconds, or 0.25 Ampere-hours, which is about 0.3% of the nominal capacity of an 80 Ah battery.
The key factor when starting the engine is not the capacity, but rather the low internal resistance of the battery. . . The measure of internal resistance in the usual battery specifications is the cold cranking current.

...and even that is measured for over 30 seconds according to DIN or EN standards.
The approximately 500A EC cold-cranking current of a modern OEM TDI battery, measured over 30 seconds, corresponds to a discharge of 4.2 Ah, which is about 5% of the nominal capacity.

However, healthy TDIs start within a maximum of 2 seconds (with 300A in winter), and it's possible that even smaller, cooled gasoline engine batteries (with less than 300A of EN cold-cranking current) could achieve the same.
Of course, you don't have such large reserves if the engine fails to start - but then it also won't start reliably if you completely drain a battery of the typical TDI size.

In other words: If you can save a few kilograms by using a conventional starter battery that is slightly smaller than the OEM specification, and by being somewhat mindful of your electricity consumption while driving, without risking being stranded anytime soon}, I would try it.
What do you (battery experts) think about that?

If it comes to easy solutions, something completely different might become interesting soon. Today, 2,000 kW locomotives are already being started with MTU 16 V 4000 R41 engines using capacitor banks.

Quote:

The locomotive has separate electrical circuits for the consumers and the starter. The power required for the starter is stored in PowerCaps, which allows for two to three starting attempts independent of the main battery.

Please provide the German text you would like me to translate into English. I will then provide the translation without any explanations.
http://de.academic.ru/dic.nsf/dewiki/1287294

A healthy engine starts with fully functional glow plugs and a good overall condition. A missing glow plug is often barely noticeable to the average person, unless it's detected through diagnostics and reported by the vehicle itself. Even with only two glow plugs, an otherwise perfectly functioning engine will still start, although it might run slightly unevenly at first and require a few more starter motor revolutions to start.


Let's consider a different perspective: If battery capacity is supposedly not that important and only a low internal resistance is crucial, what's wrong with "too small" AGM batteries or something similar? They are known for their very low internal resistances and are often used as buffers ("kickers") for car audio systems in the competitive scene. A popular example is the North Star NSB90, which weighs a hefty 36 kg but makes the standard vehicle battery unnecessary. You then have a "fast" battery for the sound system, which also serves to start the engine as a byproduct. Ultimately, it's likely to be the same weight, or perhaps even lighter, than leaving the standard vehicle battery in place and adding a second battery for the sound system.

If you were to choose something smaller than the NSB90 and forgo the powerful sound system, it should certainly be sufficient for the general needs of a car. But even the NSB60 is significantly heavier than an average lead-acid battery...

Roger wrote:

Today, 2,000 kW locomotives with MTU 16 V 4000 R41 engines are already being started using capacitor banks...

Nice... and when will something like that become affordable and appropriately sized for installation in our TDIs?

Quote:

Let's consider a different perspective: If battery capacity is supposed to be so insignificant and only a low internal resistance is important, what's wrong with "too small" AGM batteries or something similar?

If they can reliably deliver the actual starter currents for several seconds without, for example, catching fire, then, in my opinion, there's actually nothing wrong with them.
It doesn't necessarily need to be "fast" when starting, like with audio batteries, because the current surge from the starter motor is dampened by its inductances.

Quote:

But even the NSB60 is significantly heavier than an average lead-acid battery...

Do you have any suggestions for a significantly lighter option, or links where I could browse?

ulf wrote:

Nice... and when will something like that be available in a suitable size and affordable for installation in our TDIs?

When I have the manufacturer's key account manager sitting in the office again, I will ask him .

@ ulf: I have an NSB90. It starts my 1.4 HDI engine without any problems.

Hutfahrer wrote:

@ ulf: I have an NSB90. It starts my 1.4 HDI engine without any problems.

Well, that's something... If you ever see an NSB30 that weighs 13 kg or less, please let me know.

...but I don't need an NSB90 in my 206. The standard Varta Silver battery works perfectly fine in it. I only took the NSB90 camping recently. Its purpose was to power my tent lighting and an electric cooler. Actually, it was quite boring!

The battery was once sold as "used" and came into my hands that way. } With some music playing, it served as the battery in my Suzuki Ignis DDIS, which I sold in 2007, and reliably started the 1.25 DDIS engine (also known as 1.3 JTD/CDTI) in any season. So, it also replaced the vehicle's battery.

Here's something for you.

The Porsche GT2 should be the benchmark for you, because that's where they do things that are good and expensive. As an option, there's a lithium-ion battery that costs around 2000 euros extra. It's good that Porsche people have more money, but maybe it's something to think about...

http://www.autobild.de/artikel/porsche-911-gt2-rs-fahrbericht_1218107.html

Rainer K. wrote:

3300mAh / 14.8V 25C/ 50C LiPo battery pack 135.00 CHF Bitte gib mir den deutschen Text, den du übersetzt haben möchtest. Discharge current, short time: 50C (165A)

. Therefore, 3 units in parallel might be sufficient for a TDI starter.
However, the achieved nominal capacity of around 10Ah seems a bit small to me, and the bare material cost of around 400€ also seems a bit high.

But 1 kg of material weight for launching the TDI would be quite .