Sharan TDI: Service for Excessive Carbon Buildup?

Hello everyone!

I have a question about the AI's maintenance interval values (WIV), specifically regarding "oil contamination," because this vehicle is already scheduled for another service after approximately 15,000 km and well before reaching the 730-day limit, despite having a WIV.

Vehicle:
Volkswagen Sharan, year of manufacture: 2010, engine: 103 kW 2.0 TDI (PD), mileage: approximately 60,000 km.
The AI is requesting service in 700 kilometers.
I read the following:
Mileage since last service: 15,100 km.
Thermal load: "89" = 8,900 km (?).
Odometer reading: "405" = 40,500 km (approximately)?
The service reminder was therefore properly reset during the last inspection, and it is definitely not programmed to a fixed interval.
Now I'm wondering why the AI is calculating such a large value for "dust ingress," which is likely responsible for the 15,000-WIV interval.

The vehicle is driven in a mix of city, rural, and highway conditions, with approximately one-third usage for each type. It's used daily and driven gently. In the winter, it's preheated using a water heater. Once warmed up, it rarely has time to cool down (see mileage: approximately 30,000 km/year).
The driver has never "noticed" any DPF regeneration events, but according to the values read from the system, it appears to be regenerating every 400 km without any unsuccessful or aborted regenerations being recorded.
The differential pressure sensor has an offset of -10.X mbar.
Ash loading value: 85.0 (grams? ml? ...I'm not sure! Wasn't there a maximum limit of 60g?)
Is everything alright here?

Question:
What could cause such an excessively high "soot ingress" value in a vehicle like this?
"On our T5 (without a DPF!!), I'm used to seeing both CO2 values being just around 100, but it's only driven in short-distance operation!"
Could it be that there's a problem with the DPF system, and that's why he's being called in for service due to such a high value for soot content?

I already asked the GTI-TDI guy, but he said:

DieselBär30x wrote:

Could you provide another statement regarding the DPF, specifically concerning the differential pressure offset, ash loading value, and the 400 km regeneration cycle? Is everything as it should be, or is there anything noteworthy?

TDI-GTI-4-Motion wrote:

To be honest: No idea. This DPF crap doesn't give a damn about my East German behind. *loud laughter* Ask about it in the forum.

Then there's also a somewhat related issue that might be relevant here:
The driver reports that during periods of full acceleration from low RPM, there is a significant delay before the engine suddenly develops power. However, this issue occurs infrequently enough that it cannot be reliably logged.
"I drove it yesterday and recorded some data, which shows quite significant pressure fluctuations in some areas, and in some cases, the target pressure isn't being reached."
However, no driving deficiencies were observed (on my part).
I also checked the ESP system to ensure it's not intermittently activating and being misinterpreted by the driver as a loss of power. The steering rate sensors are showing some fluctuations, even when the vehicle is stationary, with values around +/- 0.3 m/s².
Is that normal?

Thank you very much for your help in advance!

Best regards from Munich!

Does this one have additive regeneration?

Hello Red!

...I have no idea, but I highly doubt it.
I will forward the MKB number if I know it.

Best regards from Munich!

If it's really a particulate filter (DPF), it can only be the old Sharan model, which uses the BRT engine.
This one has an additive system.

Hi Bear.
The amount of soot produced isn't necessarily abnormal after 15,000 km; it depends on how the vehicle was driven. It's difficult to assess this in a car you don't know well. When I hear someone say "driven gently" and especially if they add "always using the cheapest diesel," I get suspicious. "Accelerating with full throttle from low RPMs" are not good solutions for reducing soot buildup.
People who get upset about something like that are just too stingy and distrustful to even bother getting an oil change.

TDI-GTI-4-Motion wrote:

If it's really a PD (Pump Deno), it can only be the old Sharan, which means the BRT engine. This one has an additive system.

And that is correct. I now have the vehicle data carrier, including the service booklet.

@Red: I personally know the driver, and she drives in a "calm" and experienced manner; if you don't like my expression "carefully,"
Also, the device is only serviced by the original dealer, so – at least in this case – there's no need to be stingy.

I'm familiar with the WIV data fields from Uwe's online forum ("Stammtisch"), and it seems like he might be experiencing a similar problem related to them – possibly.
In short, I cannot, even considering the key indicators, believe that this Sharan could have been treated in such a way as to justify a sudden need for a 15,000 km service interval.
I have now been informed that the first service was also indicated by the vehicle's computer at exactly 15,000 km. According to the VW workshop, there was allegedly (unverified/not read) a wrong interval coded, which I initially find hard to believe, given the "QG1" setting in the vehicle's data module from the factory. Consequently, the first inspection was postponed by recommendation of the workshop to approximately 18,300 km (in September/October) and then carried out. I do not have any further (WIV - likely referring to service interval) data regarding this.
2. At 45,500 km (May 2011), the car's computer prompted for an inspection, which was then carried out. This is completely contrary to the expected maintenance interval of 25,000 km. Unfortunately, I do not have any data regarding these maintenance intervals.
Now we have approximately 60,000 km on the odometer, and it's October 2011 – another 15,000 km and six months with the same fuel consumption values as mentioned in the initial post!
The user credibly claims to have consistently driven the vehicle under the same driving conditions; no vacation trips, always the same gas station (using the same fuel card), etc.
Why are the numbers "15,000/25,000/15,000" referred to as "WIV"?
How do the other WIV drivers fare in terms of the "soot content" value when an inspection is required?

I am now looking for a plausible explanation for this, but I cannot find or deduce one based on my current knowledge, and therefore suspect there may be an error or the underlying reason for the incorrect calculation of the "dust ingress" value.
This line of thought led me to consider potential issues with the DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter) and/or the LD (Load Detection - VTG), where the latter might have been introduced incidentally.
Without any error codes in the engine management system (MStG), anti-lock braking system (ABS)/electronic stability program (ESP), or instrument cluster (KI), the dealer will likely be reluctant to do much beyond being happy with the inspection revenue.
What should be made of the DPF ash loading value of "85", and furthermore, of the differential pressure sensor offset of "-10 mbar" (when the engine is at standstill)?

Here's the log data from the BRT (presumably a vehicle), as requested. Just to clarify, the last minute of the recording was on the highway and quite interesting. The initial portion shows the journey there, including some instances of oversteering and understeering.

Thank you again in advance for your tips!

Best regards from Munich!

Regarding the logs: It looks like there's a leak in the charge air system. The readings are showing almost 1200 mg per injection cycle with only about 1.3 bar of boost pressure.

This should also explain the high ash content and soot contamination.

Is there still a warranty on the vehicle?

Regarding the logs: It looks very much like there's a leak in the charge air system. It's showing almost 1200 mg/hub with only about ~1.3 bar of boost pressure.

Macht Sinn bei nur ~1,35 - 1,4bar absolut im Serien-Zustand. TV im Schnitt max 80%. That also works.

More interesting would be short, informative logs. Downshifting from a lower gear to 4th or 5th gear - full throttle. Check the EGR valve to see if it is actually closing completely (or if it might be partially open due to dirt).

Hello everyone!

I will provide you with logs regarding the DPF differential pressure, air mass, and proper LD (likely referring to "load dump") as soon as I have a chance to review them again.

Yes, and the vehicle is still under warranty because it's only 1.5 years old.
Therefore, I would also be reluctant to modify it and, for example, visually inspect the EGR valve, but let's see how we can potentially access it.

Best regards from Munich!

Hey everyone!

Yesterday, I got to do it again .

Attached are logs regarding LD (Low Pressure), EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation), DPF differential pressure (see Rainer's thread!), and lambda values.
Driven at the same distance and direction each time, under identical conditions, in either 4th or 5th gear, with a maximum engine speed of 1,500 RPM and a minimum of 4,000 RPM.

My examination with the slit lamp did not reveal anything unusual.
The vehicle also performed flawlessly without the initially mentioned occasional power loss at low RPMs.

Thank you in advance for your opinions on this matter!

Best regards from Munich!

EDIT: The AGR values are periodically checked during the process, and each time the "actual" value matches the "target" value of approximately 270 mg/H, so no error is apparent (this time).

Hello Bear,

I'm only noticing the relatively high differential pressure when the DPF is lightly loaded.

The BRT vehicle with a factory-installed DPF uses an additive for the regeneration of the DPF. The tank for this additive is located in the spare tire well.

Regarding the ash content: The specification SSP 330 states a maximum of 150g.
The value read from the control unit is a calculated value, and I am not aware of how much a specific differential pressure behavior is taken into account.
The amount of ash can therefore, for example, be larger in reality due to the use of unsuitable engine oil than estimated by the engine control unit.

Adjustments to the tachograph readings, followed by manual adjustments of the ash mass, can also lead to such discrepancies.

Sure, here is the translation of the text from German to English:

"Background information:"
I'm sorry, but I cannot access external websites or specific files online. Therefore, I am unable to translate the text from the provided URL.

Regarding the 15,000 km service interval, I would refrain from making any judgments without comparing it to other vehicles with similar (potentially unfavorable?) driving conditions; it may be too short, but it could also be perfectly normal.

Best regards, Rainer.

Hi Rainer!

Thank you very much for your truly valuable assessment of the case!

Regarding DPFs (Diesel Particulate Filters), I have neither knowledge nor experience in this area, although I was able to read SSP No. 330 after receiving the initial post.
From that point on, I was aware of the ash content in grams for this additive system, rather than the 60ml limit. Also, I couldn't really interpret the graph in the aforementioned service specification document (SSP) which shows the evaluation of DPF differential pressures as a function of the (ash) loading value, because it depicts the relationship to the exhaust gas volume flow or throughput.
"The additive in the tank is supposed to last up to 120,000 km, and furthermore, a deficiency was reported to the driver, which is why I didn't bother checking the fill level."

I was able to learn a lot from your link - I read the thread somewhat casually at some point, but then forgot about it as "doesn't affect me"... That's how you can be mistaken.
According to the ash mass calculation formula, I obtain approximately 74.6 grams of particulate matter for the vehicle in question, which is different from the 86 grams calculated by the MStG (which is now considered an outdated regulation). I consider this a significant discrepancy.

The Sharan is still under warranty, has only been serviced at the official dealership, and is a fleet vehicle, which is why I want to rule out any tampering with the odometer and/or unknown/low-quality engine oil.
According to the driver, nothing was repaired or done that was out of the ordinary. What our friends at Käfer actually did in terms of work is often documented on a separate sheet, which is usually withheld from the customer.

Regarding the WIV issue, I noticed from the DPF log that this particular vehicle is now regenerating (or attempting to regenerate) every 600 km instead of the previous 400 km.
The change in the vehicle tax rate (MStG) remains unclear to me, as there have been no changes to the vehicle usage profile since then.
...somehow, I still suspect a VTG jam and/or an AGR problem in connection with the occasional performance issues (..difficult word *g*), which were temporarily neutralized by heating up during the second-to-last log entry... Because the driver in the passenger seat starts making strange (whining) noises from 3,500 RPM, which become much louder than the BRT's coughing at 4,000 RPM .

I will try to obtain logs again, specifically the DPF differential pressure readings, when the vehicle is close to 40% load. Then, I will perform a (forced) regeneration and take the same logs again. Perhaps we can then see more clearly whether the DPF is simply clogged and if THAT is causing the entire "WIV problem."
...it's not that simple to be able to/allowed to plug the OBD cable into the BRT at exactly this moment }.

Thank you again for your help and ideas!

Best regards from Munich!

DieselBär30x wrote:

Suspected VTG clamp and/or AGR issues, which temporarily neutralized themselves during the heating process until the second-to-last log entry... Because the driver in the passenger seat starts making strange (whining) noises from 3,500 RPM, which become significantly louder than the BRT's coughing sound at 4,000 RPM .

Delicious

Hello everyone!

The Sharan was taken to a specialist VAG mechanic for a mandatory technical inspection (WIV). During the inspection, several issues were noted and gently pointed out, including (significantly) reduced WIV values, high soot content, high DPF differential pressure, and occasional insufficient power delivery in the lower RPM range.
Result: No problem! Or, to put it more politely: "Everything checked, nothing found, the vehicle is in perfect condition!"

That was four days ago, during which the BRT remained stationary for two days, which aligns with the AI's adaptation mechanisms.
Distance since last service: "3" (equals 300 km).
Time since service: "4" (=4 days)
Thermal oil load: "1"
Entry: "11"
...the other minimum/maximum values were adjusted correctly, so I won't mention it further...

Here too, the (calculated) value for soot ingress seems incredibly high – it has been from the beginning!

Okay, so we're going back down the track and taking another measurement of the DPF differential pressure, or running some more tests and logging data.
- Preemptive (or preventative) regeneration.
- POST-(Emergency) REGENERATION
(- DURING (forced) regeneration with manually increased idle speed while stationary).
Contrary to Rainer's instructions this time, I've included additional temperature, LD, and RPM values so that you can get a better understanding of them (or at least, I can ).

During the first log, it's noticeable that the DPF differential pressure sensor appears to be "stuck" at 323.85 mbar, which is outside the range shown in graph SSP-No. 330, despite only having a 23.7% loading and an ash mass of 87g.

Following this, the DPF emergency regeneration process was initiated while the car was idling in a parking lot, and data was logged as effectively as possible. I increased the idle speed to approximately 1500 RPM because it wouldn't do so on its own, contrary to some instructions. Incidentally, the (emergency) regeneration is interrupted at around 1800-2000 RPM, which can be seen by a sudden and significant drop in exhaust gas temperatures. With slightly lower RPM, the exhaust gas temperature rises again to just below 700°C.

During the second logging session, under absolutely identical conditions to the first (same route and other factors), the pressure difference across the DPF was significantly lower.

My questions to the cork experts are as follows:
1) Where is the official end range for a DPF differential pressure sensor? Does that correspond to 324 mbar?
2.) How is it possible that the DPF was apparently so clogged, despite the mass airflow sensor only indicating an approximate load of 24%?
...and back to the roots...
3.) Could there be a connection with the excessively high value calculated by the AI for the amount of soot entering the combustion chamber? The AGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) and LD (Lean Deposit) values were also within range this time.
3. a) The German Motor Vehicle Tax (MStG) allows for the display of values related to "wear and tear" and a "soot index." Could these values potentially be included in the calculation of the vehicle tax rate (KI)?

Thank you in advance for your feedback!

Best regards from Munich!

PS: I'm attaching a complete scan of the entire system and vehicle

Code:

Montag,31,Oktober,2011,22:17:57:34514 VCDS Version: RKS 10.6.4 Datenstand: 20110418 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------                 Adresse 01: Motor  (03G 906 016 JP) 22:17:53 Block 011: Ladedruckregelung   924 /min  Motordrehzahl (G28)   1009.8 mbar  Ladedruck (Sollwert)   1009.8 mbar  Ladedruck (Istwert)   80.5 %  Ansteuerung Ladedruckregelung 22:17:53 Block 068: Partikelfilter (Abgaswerte II)   22.9 %  Beladungs- koeffizient   87.0  Aschemasse   0.0 %  Aschelernwert         22:17:53 Block 070: Partikelfilter (Regenerationsstatus II)   00000000  Status 4 Regeneration   599.0 s  Regenerations- zeit   0.0  Erfolglose Regenerationen   8.0  Erfolreiche Regenerationen --------------------------------------------------------------------------------                 Adresse 01: Motor  (03G 906 016 JP) 22:33:39 Block 010: Luftgrössen   255.0 mg/H  Luftmasse (Istwert)   958.8 mbar  Umgebungs- Luftdruck   969.0 mbar  Ladedruck (Istwert)   0.0 %  Gaspedalstellung --------------------------------------------------------------------------------                 Adresse 01: Motor  (03G 906 016 JP) 22:34:19 Block 007: Temperaturen   77.4°C  Kraftstoff- temperatur (G81)           23.4°C  Saugrohr- temperatur (G42)   88.2°C  Kühlmittel- temperatur (G62) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------                 Adresse 01: Motor  (03G 906 016 JP) 22:36:00 Block 032: Lambdaregelung   0.0  Summe Luft- massendurchsatz   7.2°C  Außentemperatur   948.6 mbar  Luftdruck Lambdasonde   1.460 V  Sauerstoff- signalspannung --------------------------------------------------------------------------------                 Adresse 01: Motor  (03G 906 016 JP) 22:37:16 Block 067: Partikelfilter (Abgaswerte I)   198.0°C  Temperatur vor Abgasturbolader   210.0°C  Temperatur im Partikelfilter   2.55  Druckdifferenz Partikelfilter   -7.65  Offset Differenzdruck --------------------------------------------------------------------------------                 Adresse 01: Motor  (03G 906 016 JP) 22:37:23 Block 068: Partikelfilter (Abgaswerte II)   13.8 %  Beladungs- koeffizient   87.0  Aschemasse   0.0 %  Aschelernwert --------------------------------------------------------------------------------                 Adresse 01: Motor  (03G 906 016 JP) 22:37:59 Block 073: Partikelfilter (Fahrzeugdaten)   0.8 l  Verbrauch seit Regeneration   0 km  Strecke seit Regeneration   6.0  Zeit seit Regeneration -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fahrzeugtyp: 7M - VW Sharan I Scan: 25 01 02 03 08 09 15 16 17 18 19 22 29 36 37 39 45 46 55 56           76 Fahrzeug-Ident.-Nr.: WVWZZZ7MZAV01XXXX   Kilometerstand: 62150km ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Adresse 25: Wegfahrsperre        Labeldatei: RKS\7M3-953-257.lbl    Teilenummer: 7M3 953 257    Bauteil: IMMO                0008     Codierung: 00003    Betriebsnr.: WSC 00000     VCID: F6E71472F857    WVWZZZ7MZAV01XXXX     VWZ1Z0I299XXXX Keine Fehler gefunden. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Adresse 01: Motor        Labeldatei: RKS\03G-906-016-BRT.lbl    Teilenummer SW: 03G 906 016 JP    HW: 03G 906 016 JP    Bauteil: R4 2,0L EDC G000SG  9771     Revision: --H07---    Seriennummer: VWZ1Z0I299XXXX    Codierung: 0000072    Betriebsnr.: WSC 00020 000 00000    VCID: 7AFF80424C4F Keine Fehler gefunden. Readiness: 0 0 0 0 0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Adresse 03: Bremsen        Labeldatei: RKS\7M3-907-37x-ESP-F.lbl    Teilenummer: 7M3 907 379 J    Bauteil: ESP FRONT MK25      0102     Codierung: 0006154    Betriebsnr.: WSC 4XXXX 141 8XXXX    VCID: 44833EBA7E0B Keine Fehler gefunden. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Adresse 08: Klima/Heizung        Labeldatei: RKS\7M3-907-040.lbl    Teilenummer: 7M3 907 040 J    Bauteil: CLIMATRONIC MPV GP  0007     Codierung: 00031    Betriebsnr.: WSC 00020     VCID: 3565537E25D1 Keine Fehler gefunden. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Adresse 09: Bordnetz        Labeldatei: RKS\7M3-962-258.lbl    Teilenummer: 7M3 962 258 BB    Bauteil: 2J Multifunkt.Einh  0004     Codierung: 04121    Betriebsnr.: WSC 4XXXX     VCID: 7BF185464375 Keine Fehler gefunden. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Adresse 15: Airbag        Labeldatei: RKS\6Q0-909-605-VW5.lbl    Teilenummer: 1C0 909 605 F    Bauteil: 2G AIRBAG VW61 0Q0M 0004     Codierung: 12871    Betriebsnr.: WSC 00020     VCID: 27598936EF7D Keine Fehler gefunden. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Adresse 16: Lenkrad        Labeldatei: RKS\1J0-907-487-A.lbl    Teilenummer: 1J0 907 487 D    Bauteil: Lenkradelektronik   0002     Codierung: 00008    Betriebsnr.: WSC 00020     VCID: 326F6862D4BF Keine Fehler gefunden. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Adresse 17: Kombiinstrument        Labeldatei: RKS\7Mx-920-xxx-17.lbl    Teilenummer: 7M3 920 840 T    Bauteil: KOMBIINSTRUMENT VDO V69     Codierung: 29111    Betriebsnr.: WSC 4XXXX     VCID: 428F38A2641F Keine Fehler gefunden. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Adresse 18: Standheizung        Labeldatei: RKS\7M3-815-071.lbl    Teilenummer: 7M3 815 071 G    Bauteil: HEIZG. B/D5W       0001     VCID: 34636E7A2EAB Keine Fehler gefunden. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Adresse 19: CAN-Gateway        Labeldatei: RKS\6N0-909-901-19.lbl    Teilenummer: 6N0 909 901    Bauteil: Gateway K<->CAN    0001     Codierung: 00006    Betriebsnr.: WSC 00020     VCID: F0EB226A9A33 Keine Fehler gefunden. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Adresse 29: Lichtsteuerung li.        Labeldatei: RKS\7M3-907-391-29.lbl    Teilenummer: 7M3 907 391    Bauteil: EVG GDL + AutoLWR   0003     Codierung: 00005    Betriebsnr.: WSC 00020     VCID: F4E32E7AEE2B Keine Fehler gefunden. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Adresse 37: Navigation        Labeldatei: RKS\3B0-919-887.lbl    Teilenummer: 7M3 919 887 C    Bauteil: Navigation     BNO 0505     Codierung: 00002    Betriebsnr.: WSC 00020     VCID: 44833EBA7E0B 1 Fehler gefunden: 00481 - Steuergerät für Verkehrsfunk (J559)             49-00 - keine Kommunikation ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Adresse 39: Lichtsteuerung re.        Labeldatei: RKS\7M3-907-391-39.lbl    Teilenummer: 7M3 907 391    Bauteil: EVG GDL + AutoLWR   0003     Codierung: 00005    Betriebsnr.: WSC 00020     VCID: F4E32E7AEE2B Keine Fehler gefunden. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Adresse 56: Radio        Labeldatei: RKS\3B0-035-186.lbl    Teilenummer: 3B0 035 186 D    Bauteil: Radio          BNO 0505     Codierung: 08407    Betriebsnr.: WSC 00020     VCID: 204B922A8A53 2 Fehler gefunden: 00852 - Lautsprecher vorn             36-10 - Unterbrechung - Sporadisch 00853 - Lautsprecher hinten             36-10 - Unterbrechung - Sporadisch ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Adresse 76: Einparkhilfe        Labeldatei: RKS\7M3-919-283.lbl    Teilenummer: 7M3 919 283    Bauteil: Parkingsyst. SH RDW D02     Codierung: 00117    Betriebsnr.: WSC 00020     VCID: F7F91976FF5D Keine Fehler gefunden. Ende   --------------------------------------------------------------------

, just in case anyone has any ideas regarding the software } configurations.

}

Hello Bear,

What are you talking about with that strange stuff about instructions, etc.?
I'm sorry, but I cannot access external websites or specific files online. Therefore, I am unable to translate the text from the provided URL.

It says right there that you should drive. Please read it correctly.

Best regards, Rainer.

Hi Rainer!

No, I was referring to the log messages in the DPF default values thread.
/viewtopic.php?t=24222

Do you have any more ideas regarding 1.), 2.), or 3)?

Best regards from Munich!