Infos zu neuen 4Zyl TDIs? | Posts 16+

Hi Ulf,

What facts do you base your statement about the '130PD' on?
As far as I know, the 130 model only meets Euro3 standards, right?
That's what I meant by 'specifically the 130PD.'
Whether you plan to buy a new car now or in four years, I believe you still want to get the option with the lowest emissions standard included, rather than settling for the second-best solution.
And why do you think that the 2.0 version should be more durable than the initial release, which was still in its early stages?
Problems with initial production runs are common.
In that sense, the 130PD has certainly improved over time as well.
And I doubt that the 2.0 version will be spared .
However, I believe I read that Volkswagen is trying to put an end to this recurring issue with the new generation of TDI engines by using a reinforced timing belt once again.
To find out whether this works (and whether other problems arise), I want to leave it up to the 'test drivers' of the first production years.

...
I have to disagree with you. The first generation of those cars also used Pierburg mass airflow sensors, and they were just as expensive as the Bosch ones (but significantly worse).
Only the calculations of VAG and DC are completely different. While DC makes money from sales and prefers to take less money for service and spare parts, Volkswagen wants to compensate for the lower sales revenue through service and spare parts .

Hi Bertil,

You are absolutely right that the 1Z engines had a Pierburg component and that it caused problems. That is probably true.
but: if we assume that a Bosch LMM might function for 150,000 km without problems and costs 300 euros, while the Pierburg part functions perfectly for 60,000 km, which one is more likely to install? For VW, it's probably Bosch. Of course, you have fewer issues with Bosch. But for me, as someone who likes to tinker, there's only one choice (at least personally!!!): Pierburg. Even if the part doesn't last nearly as long as a Bosch due to potentially lower quality, I've found a financially and technically acceptable solution in the long run! And I haven't paid the monopoly surcharge! I looked at the part; it's externally identical except for the connector. Perhaps Pierburg and Bosch even source the part from the same OEM manufacturer!
But that's just my personal opinion!

but nevertheless, you will agree with me that Bosch ruthlessly exploits its position as market leader (or former market leader ) regarding injection technology, and dictates prices far beyond any reality!

Markus H. wrote:

Whether you want to buy a new car now or in four years, you still want to "include" the cheapest emission standard with it, and not the second-best solution – I think.

Hi Markus,

If I have the choice between something that is well-established and reliable or something brand new and clean, I would choose the first option - unless the tax is so much higher that I would have to pay for a replacement engine for the state in 3 years .

Quote:

First production runs often have problems. In that sense, the 130PD has certainly improved over time.

That's exactly what I hope for - and whether my Golf will last that long without major repairs is another question. The 2.0 engines might be more mature than the 130 hp version, but that remains to be seen.

Quote:

To find out if this works (and whether other problems arise), I want to leave it up to the ":lol:test drivers"

of the first few years of production.

That's exactly my "tactic" – although I probably won't apply it to the "old" PDs next time }.

joergs wrote:

@ulf you see, PD isn't that bad at all! The 96 kW is quite powerful, once you get used to the rather inhomogeneous power delivery. . .

Hi Jörg,

I once tried to calculate the acceleration and driving pleasure of an Ibiza with a 96 kW direct-injection engine (the lightest car with that engine) compared to my Golf 3 with a power box, but of course, only theoretical data could be considered.

The most relevant metric in this case is likely the power-to-weight ratio, although one must also consider the superior peak torque at mid-range RPMs.

The 96kW PD engine produces approximately 61.7 kW of power at 1900 rpm.
The AFN engine, with its increased power output of 96 kW, likely has a maximum torque of around 278 Nm, resulting in a power output in that range of approximately 55.3 kW.

For calculating the "power-to-weight ratio" that I use, I take the average between that number and the maximum power (Pmax). For a tuned AFN engine, this results in 75.7 kW, while for a 96 PD engine, it's 78.8 kW.
With these figures, the power-to-weight ratios are 11.6 kg/hp for the Golf and 11.8 kg/hp for the Ibiza, with a minimum weight and one driver (1195 kg and 1263 kg respectively) – essentially a tie. However, the Ibiza performs slightly better (approximately 6%) than the Golf in the area of maximum torque, while the Golf performs slightly better (also approximately 6%) than the Ibiza when fully revved.

Considering the longer overall translations (rpm -> km/h) of the Ibiza, I've come to the conclusion that my tractor, when I engage the "box," likely won't be outmatched by a 96 kW Ibiza in terms of acceleration in everyday driving.

Of course, you could also modify the Ibiza; then the Golf wouldn't stand a chance when it comes to acceleration .
However, regarding the '96 PD engine, I would have reservations mainly due to the resulting power output, and I would probably avoid it – or at most consider a switchable chip tuning solution.

My personal conclusion:

1. Even with PD injection, the fun is limited by the vehicle's weight – an older VP-TDI engine in a "light" car doesn't necessarily perform worse than a PD engine with extra weight added to it.

2. The higher top speed of the Ibiza doesn't compensate for the annoying, almost mandatory "toy store" experience that I was able to avoid when ordering the Golf.

3. As a potential successor to the Golf sometime in the future, I am currently still considering the Ibiza with its 96 kW engine, but I certainly don't feel any rush .

Hello forum,

I'd like to ask a provocative question: Could it be that this new factory in Saxony is actually intended to produce CRISPR systems? There would, of course, be obvious reasons to initially conceal this.
Based on what I've read in various forums, Siemens has invested its development resources in advanced Common Rail (CR) technology with piezo injectors. There have also been hints that VW is interested in this technology specifically (as a replacement for PD), not to mention that Siemens employees often criticize PD technology. And now, VW wants to have Siemens' "CR enthusiasts" build PD components? It's also strange that Bosch's hard-earned experience with PD technology seems to be excluded. Or can VW simply transfer Bosch's expertise to Siemens, and then produce better PD components there without any friction? Or is it perhaps the case that Siemens' piezo injectors can overcome the specific shortcomings of PD technology compared to CR?
Okay, dear insiders, I'm curious to know if this final commitment from VW regarding the production of diesel engines can truly be substantiated with concrete facts. Or is the Saxon factory more like a "Trojan horse," diligently assembling diesel engine components, but containing Siemens CR (common rail) parts inside?

Regards,
Joachim.

@ulf

I hadn't really thought about it that way before. You're probably right that there wouldn't be significant differences between your modified G3 and the 96kW Ibiza.

I'm already noticing 'slight differences' ( @bertil: is it better like this with the quotation marks? ) compared to my beloved 1Z with about 115 hp!

'But as you mentioned earlier that your tractor is an uncertainty factor due to its mileage, I wouldn't want to confirm that. Look here in the forum; there are plenty of vehicles with over 200,000 km. Of course, some of them have this or that minor issue. But somehow, they still run! Mine also has 225,000 km on the clock and is purring like a watch again. A lot depends on the maintenance and driving habits. When I read about the problems some people are having with ESP, I can thankfully only smile. I haven't had any of those problems at all! And my mileage is considerably more! How much do you have now? 40,000 km? 45,000 km? Stay calm; it still has a lot of kilometers left in it!'

Hi Joachim,

Joachim B. wrote:

I'd like to ask a provocative question: Could it be that this new factory in Saxony is actually intended to produce (or could potentially produce) CRISPR systems?

"Certainly not! Additional CR systems might be built. The plant will likely not be fully utilized with PD alone."
"Three years ago, SVA announced its entry into the PD technology sector, but has consistently and successfully denied it ever since (a clever move)."
"VW would then be stuck with a misinvestment costing several hundred million euros, which the company simply cannot afford. The new four-valve direct injection cylinder head requires completely different production facilities and tools."

Quote:

There are obvious reasons why one might initially want to conceal this.

The opposite was done. They denied the existence of the PD technology, even though it had been present in laboratories for a long time!

Quote:

Based on what I've read in various online forums, it seems that Siemens has invested its development resources in advanced Common Rail (CR) technology with piezo injectors.

Great duck! That's not entirely correct; the PD technology has always been present.

Quote:

There have also been recurring hints that VW is interested in this technology specifically (as a replacement for PD), not to mention that Siemens employees often make disparaging remarks about PD.

No one criticizes PD in the SVA development process.
Then "badmouthing" only applies to salespeople who have to sell a product and then complain about the monopoly competition because they themselves couldn't offer that product.

Quote:

And now, Volkswagen wants to build pressure differential (PD) elements with the "CR-Fans" from Siemens? It's also strange that the PD experience gained by Bosch through years of hard work is apparently going to be excluded.

Don't stay. SVA has been supplying engine control units (ECUs) for PD injection systems from the competition for a long time, and there might be quite a bit "left over" from that. Bosch is also involved, but they only lost out on the four-valve contract. Everything related to the eight-valve system remains with Bosch.

Quote:

Can VW simply transfer Bosch's expertise to Siemens and then produce better Piezo Direct Injection (PD) elements there without any issues? Or is it possible that the Siemens piezo injectors can overcome the specific disadvantages of PD technology compared to Common Rail (CR) injection?

I believe that three years of development time should be sufficient to build equivalent (not better) PD systems.

Quote:

Okay, dear insiders, I'm curious to know if this final commitment from VW regarding the production of diesel engines can actually be substantiated with concrete facts. Or is the Saxon factory more like a "Trojan horse," diligently assembling diesel engine components, but containing Siemens CR (common rail) parts inside?

You can't simply convert a PD system to a CR system. If someone has chosen a PD system, the cylinder head is designed for it, and you definitely can't install a CR system in it (and vice versa).
Both systems are not compatible with each other and operate in completely different ways. Therefore, your statement "...which already contains diligently installed... CR components" cannot be correct.
It's the same as claiming that a Wankel engine uses reciprocating piston components. Both require gasoline and move a car, but their design and operating principles are completely different.

By the way, one more thing:
Initially, the significantly smaller piezo injectors enable a valve cylinder head design. This has previously been the domain of common rail (CR) technology!

Furthermore, I believe it's detrimental for a diesel system manufacturer to reject the PD technology. This could lead to significant losses in the NKF sector, where PD (or UIP) technology is more prevalent. In fact, even Daimler uses PD systems in that area and is even considered a pioneer in PD technology (in the Actros).

@joergs

Quote:

I'm already noticing "slight differences" ( @bertil: is it better like this with the quotation marks? ) compared to my beloved 1Z with about 115 hp!

Sounds better

joergs wrote:

@ulfwieviel how many kilometers do you currently have on your car? 40,000 km? 45,000 km? Don't worry, it still has a lot of miles left in it!

Hi Jörg,

Yes, soon it will be 40,000 km.

But if I miss the opportunity to get a "well-developed" 96 kW engine (used, there probably aren't many "bare" Signos with this engine that meet my expectations) - when will there be a well-developed 16V PD engine available :?
And at what cost?

For comparison: Golf 1 with 115 hp and Passat 96 kW PD.
Do you have any "objectively measured" performance figures, for example, acceleration from 50 to 100 km/h?

But if I miss the opportunity to get a 'well-maintained' 96 kW engine (used, there probably aren't many 'bare' Signos with this engine that meet my expectations) - when will there be a well-maintained 16V PD available :?
And at what cost?


Sure, that's completely understandable from that perspective!




For comparison: Golf 1 with 115 hp and Passat 96 kW PD.
Do you have any 'objectively measured' performance figures, such as acceleration from 50 to 100 km/h?


I don't have them. I will send them later when I have the chance! But you can definitely notice the difference in acceleration and starting .

postscript:
When I was buying the car, ultimately, performance related to towing was the main focus. Since I had experience with approximately 115 horsepower and a caravan attached, and I always thought: 'a few more horsepower would have been nice' when climbing various inclines, I decided on the 96 kW version! Okay, the fact that it results in more driving pleasure in everyday use is a logical side effect!
After reading various reports about stability issues with the 110kW engine and after several test drives with both the 110kW and 96kW versions, my decision ultimately favored the 96kW model, not least because of its more flexible torque curve.

joergs wrote:

ulf wrote: For comparison: Golf 1 with 115 hp and Passat 96 kW PD. Do you have any "objectively measured" performance figures, such as acceleration from 50 to 100 km/h? I don't have them. I will send them later when I have the chance! But you can definitely notice the difference in acceleration and starting . postscript: When I was buying it, ultimately, performance due to trailer operation was the main focus. Since I already had experience with the approximately 115 hp and a caravan attached, and I always thought: "a few more horsepower would have been nice" when climbing various inclines, I decided on the 96 kW version!

Hi Jörg,

Of course, losing "a few kilos" becomes practically meaningless when you're dealing with a vehicle that already has a significant amount of weight.

However, I would still like to see a preliminary comparison calculation that includes the weight of both cars (similar to what I did for the G3 and Ibiza), and whether the actual measurements correspond to those calculations.

The subjective impression of temperament can be distorted by 1000 details... for example, a pronounced "turbo" boost after a very weak suction range appears more spectacular than the same(!) acceleration after more initial bite .

Sure, here is the translation of the text from German to English:

"Addendum:"
What exactly did you do to get the 1Z engine to produce 115 horsepower?

Hi Ulf,

I don't think it's really possible to get a "naked signal" with the Ibiza.

Mine is a Signo, and it's a standard production version (though from the Netherlands) without any extra features. However, it includes:

- Car air conditioning
- Power windows
- Cruise control
- Bicolor headlights (or whatever the correct term is... basically, headlights with separate reflectors for high and low beams).
- MFA

"Stella" is probably what you're looking for, but I don't think it comes with that engine (if they even still use those model names with the 6L engine).

Best regards,

January.

Jan6K wrote:

because of the "naked sign" at Ibiza... I don't think that's quite possible. Mine is a Signo, and it's a standard production version (though from the Netherlands) without any extra features. However, it includes: Bitte gib mir den deutschen Text, den du übersetzt haben möchtest. "Stella" would probably be what you want, but I don't think it comes with that engine (if they even kept those model names for the 6L).

Hi Jan,

When I say "naked," I mean "without any additional features."

In the 6L-D-Signo, what bothers me are "only" the central locking system, electric front windows, and power mirrors, and somewhat the alloy wheels (the Stella already had all of that - so I'm not "losing" anything). Fortunately, neither of them has air conditioning .

The Stella, Signo, and Sport hierarchy also exists for the 6L models.

I think there's only one version of the car with a 130 horsepower engine.

Best regards,
Uwe

Hi,

"@Ulf: Oh yeah... I also forgot about the electric mirrors and automatic climate control, which my Signo has as standard equipment."

@Uwe: That's exactly the crazy policy of Seat... but luckily, it only applies in Germany. The 110 hp TDI engine for the 6K was also only available as the "Sport" version in Germany, but in the Netherlands, it was also offered as the "Signo," and it was about 2000 DM cheaper than the Sport version. And that made the decision clear, because for those 2000 DM, you only got junk extras – a titanium-colored gear stick, this awful sport suspension (the Signo suspension is already much stiffer than, for example, the standard suspensions in the VW 6N, and it really doesn't need to be any stiffer), and other stuff like that. I certainly don't want to drive around potholes doing slalom maneuvers.

It looks the same with the current 130 series according to the IMO (International Maritime Organization)... In the Netherlands, you can also get it under the brand name "Signo."

Best regards,

January.

Jan6K wrote:

It looks the same with the current 130 series IMO... In the Netherlands, you can also get it as a Signo.

Hello.

In Germany, it's now also available as the "Seats Car Configurator."

I think that purely theoretical questions are quite off-topic here, and I would like to end this discussion.

Hello Bertil,

I'd like to thank you for your detailed answer regarding "PD factories." My mix of skepticism and fascination with this technology has shifted somewhat more towards fascination (thanks to your information).

Regards,
Joachim.