Winterreifen am Polo 9N :-( | Posts 32+

Wider tires either already have a different tread pattern, a different weight distribution on the contact area, or simply 'more' sipes; all of this can be described as 'non-linear.'


And all of that on the same area? Damn, I wonder how they managed to do it...

Wider tires either already have a different tread pattern, a different weight distribution on the contact area, or simply 'more' sipes; all of this can be described as 'non-linear.'


And all of that on the same area? Damn, I wonder how they managed to do it...

Hello Julian,
My phrasing was probably a bit clumsy; I'm not a tire expert!
Best regards,
Günther.

Hi Günther,

The content of my previous post wasn't even specifically about tires, but rather about the basic physics involved, such as the friction between a rubber block and a concrete slab, without any tread pattern or plastic deformation.

With the profile design, you can make the tire quieter, but you can't outsmart the physics. (The sipes that you favor allow for additional effects beyond just the frictional force between two materials. However, putting all of this into a single µ value doesn't really make sense. When calculating the friction force (Fh), you already include a separate term because it deals with independent contributions. )

Regards,
Sure, here is the translation of the text from German to English:

'Micha'

*excavate*

My Uniroyal WR tires were all worn down to almost the minimum tread depth last spring (after 4 winters). Therefore, I simply left them on to continue wearing them down further during the summer/fall (within the permissible limits) and to spare the summer tires.

Therefore, I'm now thinking about my winter tires for the winter of 08/09 and, quite by chance, I came across two car tire tests in "Auto Bild" magazine, issues 38 and 39: one featuring winter tires in a 225 width, and another featuring all-season tires in a 195 width.
What I particularly appreciated were the explicit data provided for each tire: braking distances on wet, dry, and snowy surfaces, traction on snow, lap times, etc., etc.
I also found the often-included notes that (the compared) summer tires perform better than winter tires in both wet and dry conditions to be honest and informative.

When I then looked at the (school grade-) ratings of all-season tires in the areas that were important to me – snow and wet conditions – particularly focusing on braking distances, and compared the best all-season tires with the best winter tires between the two tests, my plans for buying pure winter tires again for the upcoming winter started to waver.

Here are the scores of the best-performing winter and all-season tires in the following categories: snow overall (snow braking), and wet overall (wet braking).

WR Dunlop: 1(1-), 2(2-).
WR Goodyear: 1(1) / 2-(3+)
WR Pirelli: 1 (2+) / 2- (3+)
WR Conti: 2-(2-) / 2-(2)

GJR Goodyear: 2(2) / 2+(2)
GJR Hankook: 2(2+) / 2(2)
GJR Dunlop: 2 + (1) / 2 - (3+)

Our daily routes typically take place at altitudes of 200 to 400 meters, and based on my experience, I would estimate that the proportion of non-dry road conditions during the past winters was roughly 80% wet and 20% snow.

Considering that, for example, the Goodyear GJR even received better ratings than the German premium brand Conti in snow (with the Michelin WR being somewhere in the middle), and outperforms the best WR in wet conditions, it seems logically safer to buy a Goodyear GJR instead of a pure all-season tire.

What do you think about it?
Things really get hairy in the winter with freezing rain, and the tests don't provide any data for black ice conditions.
Therefore, question complex 2 is: What do you know about the general characteristics of WR (winter tires) and GJR (presumably a specific type of tire) on ice?
Are physical differences in "grip" conceivable, or does one always slide the same distance on ice with the same vehicle mass and tire width, regardless of whether summer or winter tires are mounted?

You can actually watch the GJR test online right now.
http://www.autobild.de/artikel/test-ganzjahresreifen-195_65-r15_786047.html

*warm-up*

...after my partner also pointed out the winter performance issues of the ASZ Polo, which is now equipped with Goodyear winter tires (with approximately 5mm of tread remaining all around).
She compares the Polo to her previous car, the Ibiza 6K GP01 ALH (which she drove with two different wheel and tire sets over the years), and comes to similar conclusions as I did when comparing it to the AFN-G3: The Polo simply requires more caution and constant attention to avoid sliding into a ditch in snow or mud.
And that's not just due to the performance potential, because the torque delivery throughout the pedal stroke doesn't cause any problems for either of us.

I'm gradually starting to think that with newer car models, the winter performance characteristics haven't been fully developed, and therefore it doesn't really matter which brand of tires you use.
Because the Ibiza 6L, which is built on the same platform as the Polo and has 205-size winter tires (narrower sizes are not approved for the Cupra TDI), behaves practically the same way in snow and mud – it's just as bad – as the Polo.

But is that possible?
Specifically, which vehicle characteristics positively influence winter driving performance, and were the concepts of the G3 and Ibiza 6K truly superior to those of the 9N/6L platform in these aspects?

Hi Ulf, when I look at the wobbly control arm bushings on the Polo, which slam against each other during every braking maneuver, I suspect that the front axle has a more pronounced tendency to move around, leading to steering and handling imprecision, something that perhaps older models didn't have.
"I noticed this today while driving my Touran on a road with patchy ice. It seemed like one of the wheels was moving slightly, even though the steering wheel only jerked and the car remained straight."

teileklaus wrote:

Hi Ulf, when I look at the wobbly control arm bushings on the Polo, which slam against each other with every braking maneuver, I suspect a more pronounced tendency for movement in the front axle, resulting in steering and handling imprecision that older models might not have had.

That may be true, but with our Polo & Ibiza, I can rule that out: both have the control arm bushings mounted entirely in full rubber bushes (Ibiza from the factory, Polo retrofitted).
Furthermore, earlier in this thread, Roger described the positive qualities of his old "small" gasoline-powered 9N car.
This would make the search for the causes a much more intellectually demanding endeavor: could unpleasant winter characteristics potentially arise from this?
But then, shouldn't models like the G3 AFN and the Ibize 6K GP01 ALH have already exhibited this trend ?

ulf wrote:

Furthermore, earlier in this thread, Roger described the engine characteristics of his old "small" gasoline-powered 9N.

Just to reiterate what I said before... However, this particular 9N came with the optional ESP (Electronic Stability Program), which worked very harmoniously in snowy conditions. And it had Dunlop WinterSport M3 tires. It seems that Dunlop has found a particularly good balance; the WinterSport 3D tires feel just as responsive on the GTD. This is nothing like the Goodyear Eagle Ultra Grip tires I had on my previous G IV, which were imprecise and constantly prone to understeer.

Okay, since we're planning to buy a new turbocharger for our 96kW Polo TDI soon, I wanted to ask again if anyone has any newer tips or suggestions that haven't been mentioned before.

Problem:
The goal is for the Polo 9N 1.9 TDI to maintain its lane as effectively as possible on poorly cleared roads (snow/mud, possibly with ice underneath), instead of constantly drifting towards the ditch or elsewhere whenever there's even a slight change in conditions under the tires.

Frischer Schnee faehrt sich mit ordentlichen Reifen eigentlich wie loser Sand. Schneematsch ist, solange er nicht in den Reifenprofilen zu Eis komprimiert wird, einer ordentlich regennassen Fahrbahn recht aehnlich. Beide Zielstellungen gehen also etwas auseinander. Das Lamellenprofil soll sich beim Fahren auf Schnee mit der Fahrbahnoberflaeche verzahnen. Bei Schneematsch oder Regenwasser ist dagegen das schnellstmoegliche Abtransortieren durch die Wasserrinnen des Profils gefordert. Das ist meines Wissens der Grund, weshalb auf Schnee mit "gut" oder "sehr gut" getestete Winterreifen auf wasserueberspuelter Fahrbahn meist nicht so gut aussehen und umgekehrt auf nasser Fahrbahn gut laufende Reifen fuer das Fahren im Tiefschnee nichts reissen koennen. Viele Hersteller versuchen daher, beides miteinander zu kombinieren. Sie kombinieren V-Profile mit breiten Ablaufrinnen fuer Regenwasser mit den dann folglich kleiner werdenden Flaechen mit Lamellenprofil. Wohin das fuehrt war vor kurzem im Thema "Winterreifen fuer T4 synchro" zu lesen. There, the demands were similarly specific.

I found that the tendency for the wheels to lose traction, especially when changing lanes quickly and encountering different road conditions under the front wheels, was exacerbated by the wider track I used during winter driving (in my case, ET20 instead of ET34). However, on even road surfaces, the wider track offers better straight-line stability and, if road conditions allow, also improved handling in curves. Perhaps you could try a different approach and counteract this with narrower tires?

ulf wrote:

Earlier, I ordered a set of Dunlop WinterSport 3D tires in size 195/55 R 15 from the local tire shop, hoping that, in addition to Roger's description, many of the good test reviews (at least somewhat) are accurate.

This morning, they will be back at my place again .

Why didn't you just get the 4D? It's supposed to be improved in every way.

Roger wrote:

Why didn't you just get the 4D? It should have been improved in every way.

"Should" isn't enough for me... I prefer to wait and see what tests and experiences more knowledgeable people have.

Somewhere, I had read exactly that as a conclusion in a car magazine review.
Comparing the 3D and 4D test results from ADAC might lead to the same conclusion.

Online:
http://www.reifen-testberichte.info/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/ampnet_photo_20110908_028775.jpg
http://www.adac.de/infotestrat/tests/reifen/winterreifen/2011_Winterreifen_Test_195_65_R15.aspx?ComponentId=87119&SourcePageId=31821

Roger wrote:

Somewhere, I had read exactly that as a test conclusion in an automotive magazine. When comparing the 3D and 4D test results from ADAC, one might come to the same conclusion...

In addition:
The last winter tires we used on the Polo, which made us feel quite uncomfortable in ice and snow, were Goodyear Ultragrip Performance.

In both of the linked tests, the Goodyear UltraGrip 8 performed better than the Dunlop 4D, so switching to the Dunlop 4D now would be another significant drop in performance – unless the Goodyear UG 8 has been dramatically improved compared to the UG Performance.

Well, it remains confusing... for an answer, you basically just have to wait for road conditions that you actually don't want .

Hi.
To be honest, I can't really understand your problems.
I also live in a low mountain range area at an altitude of over 400 meters, and we have...
more snow than anywhere else in the surrounding area.
My motto: Always use brand-new tires. I don't think there will be significant differences between brands in this segment.
I've been using Pirelli Snowsport or Snowcontrol tires (size 195/55-15) on my Ibiza 6L ASZ for several years. Before that, I had Fulda tires.
When I switched from Fulda to Pirelli tires, I noticeably experienced significantly more grip in wet conditions, as well as on snow.
Last winter, I even managed to get through the last period of snow with tires that had only about 2mm of tread left on the front axle. It sometimes surprised me how well they performed in certain situations. So, I'll stick with Pirelli, following the motto "never change a winning team," even though they don't wear as well.
When assembling, I always proceed in a way that the better tires are mounted on the rear axle. There are still plenty of people who firmly believe that the better tires should go on the front axle in case of a frontal collision. Perhaps that's the problem for one or the other.
Since I drive a lot, my tires don't last very long. After all, new rubber grips better than old rubber.
So, I have to buy two new summer tires and two new winter tires for the rear axle every season.
Tires that have been used for one season on the rear axle can still last for another season on the front axle, provided they are driven in a reasonably sensible manner.

So, driving in the winter actually gives me a lot of fun .

Best regards, Jörg.