Infos zum Partikelfilter (viel Text!) | Posts 64+

SeatArosa1.7SDI wrote:

How is the system supposed to detect when a passive cable end (the diagnostic connector) is disconnected via relay contacts?

For example, a resistor combination (integrated) can be incorporated into the connector to protect it from tampering. This could be a voltage divider with two diagnostic lines per line. The data signal is then tapped off via one of the resistors. If the diagnostic adapter is not plugged in, a small current can flow through the resistors for testing purposes. If the connector is switched off by a relay, no current can flow (essentially like a light bulb monitoring system), and the control unit reports an error. The three states – 1. plugged in, 2. not plugged in, 3. defective (relay?) – can be quite accurately determined from the measured resistance values.

I understand that it is possible to manipulate things like this . A second stage would then really be the best idea.

For example, by integrating a resistor combination (protected against manipulation) into the socket.

It would be possible to integrate an identification chip into the cast insert, which could communicate with the control unit using 128-bit encryption.

However, none of this matters if someone leaves the connector along with the cable dangling somewhere behind the dashboard and installs a fake connector from a junkyard in place of the original connector .

Arms race, basically .

Hello!

Nebelwerfer_TDI wrote:

Please go ahead. They don't have that much upstairs

, I know from experience. If you're driving a Golf and get pulled over, hand the officer the vehicle registration papers for a Passat (different license plate). He'll walk around the car, look at the inspection sticker, find nothing, then return the papers and say "thank you, have a good trip." I think now you understand what kind of clueless people most police officers are }.

That might be the case where you are, in Austria.

Here in Germany, this carelessness is inappropriate. Many civil servants possess qualified expertise and receive specialized training.
If the officer has reasonable suspicion, the vehicle will be impounded and taken to an expert for inspection. If modifications are not registered or, for example, the lowering of the suspension is excessive, the vehicle will be decommissioned and towed away by a towing service.

Large-scale arms races can be easily prevented: a mandatory, bi-annual inspection is required. This comes at a high cost and with particularly thorough checks.
Software-wise, there are various options for encryption available, using a public and private key approach.

BYE
TDI mechanics.

A large-scale arms race can be easily prevented: a mandatory, bi-annual inspection is required. This comes at a high cost and with particularly thorough checks.


Do you really think I would drive with tuned performance to the emissions test (AU) or 'Pickerl'? They usually revert it back to the standard settings .

What bothers me is that currently, this substance is only offered exclusively by DC under the brand name 'AdBlue,' instead of corporations coming together and developing a cross-company standard.

http://www.stern.de/sport-motor/autoservice/:Allianz--Sag-Bluetec-Diesel/577524.html

Here's the translation:

"Today, there was an article in Süddeutsche Zeitung about this topic: A subsidy of €330 will be available starting April 2007, and it will apply retroactively to vehicles equipped after January 1, 2006. The tax for vehicles that have not been retrofitted will increase by €1.2 per 100 cc per year. Installation costs are reportedly around €600."
http://www.vcd.org/fileadmin/user_upload/redakteure/themen/auto_und_motorrad/russfilter/Informationen_Nachruestung_060626.pdf

And: 30/11/2006

Inco and Süd-Chemie have formed a joint venture to develop materials and catalysts for controlling diesel emissions.

Inco Limited (Inco), a leading producer of nickel and nickel-based specialty products...
in Toronto, Canada, and Süd-Chemie AG, Munich, Germany (Süd-Chemie).
leading supplier of catalysts for the chemical and refining industries.
for environmental applications, have agreed to form a joint venture.
Company specializing in the production and marketing of catalysts for diesel emissions control.
control materials for the automotive industry. Equity stakes in the new...
The company, which will be named Alantum, will be divided equally between Inco.
ECM GmbH, a wholly-owned indirect subsidiary of Inco Limited, and Süd-…
Chemistry.

Alantum will initially focus on diesel oxidation catalysts (DOCs).
Diesel particulate filter (DPF) applications for European passenger cars.
light truck markets. Production will take place in a new facility located at Süd.
Chemies' Heufeld site in Germany. Commercial-scale production is expected to begin soon.
It began in 2008.

The technologies that each parent company contributes to the joint venture are:
highly complementary. Süd-Chemie contributes its extensive expertise in...
catalysis, while Inco will provide its new alloy foam substrate.
advanced metal processing technology. This new generation of catalysts...
Substrates for emission control products offer significant advantages.
compared to traditional catalyzed ceramic substrates.

The introduction of increasingly strict regulations for exhaust emissions.
in Europe offers an outstanding opportunity for growth. When setting up the...
Through this joint venture, the two companies aim to fully participate in that growth.
based on this unique offering to the automotive industry.

Peter Goudie, Inco's Executive Vice-President of Marketing, commented: "Inco is...
"We are delighted to enter into this partnership with Süd-Chemie, a recognized..."
leader in catalyst products. We see this as an exciting application for our...
Nickel foam technology and a significant technological breakthrough in catalysis.
Diesel emission control, offering significant value creation potential. Our two...
Companies, the automotive industry, and the environment will all benefit from this.
"This is a significant milestone for our partnership."

Dr. Hans Jürgen Wernicke, a member of the managing board of Süd-Chemie AG,
said: “This project is of high strategic importance for Süd-Chemie. We are a...
global leader in catalyst technology and intends to achieve a similar position.
in the rapidly growing market for diesel exhaust gas catalysts. We are proud.
to collaborate with Inco, the world's leading nickel technology company.
"reaching this goal."

Munich and Toronto, November 30, 2006.

In my opinion, the problem lies in the high vehicle weight and the excessive restriction of the engines caused by the catalytic converter, pre-catalytic converter, DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter), and at least two silencers. Turbodiesel engines already produce very little exhaust noise, so one silencer should be sufficient. In my case, I didn't notice any acoustic issues related to a leak between the manifold and the aftermarket DPF; it was only detected by the workshop. When you held your hand near the leak, the exhaust fumes blew quite strongly.

"Ecologically speaking, nothing that our current government proposes is sustainable. On the one hand, commutes of 150 km (one way) are considered acceptable and even demanded as a form of flexibility, while on the other hand, private car use is generally demonized as an environmental sin. I would advocate for abolishing vehicle taxes as a tax on ownership and instead taxing the actual use of a vehicle, as this is directly related to usage patterns."

Furthermore, I would reward drivers of fuel-efficient vehicles, as well as those who drive in a way that conserves fuel. Therefore, for me, only the taxation of sold fuel would be an option. Those who drive a lot and consume a lot produce more emissions, particulate matter, and noise. This would primarily disadvantage professional drivers who travel frequently, but they also have the choice to pay more or less depending on their driving habits in relation to the fuel consumption of their vehicle.

Anyone familiar with relaxed driving on French highways will be able to adapt to a maximum speed limit of 130 km/h on motorways. I've never actually reached speeds close to 130 km/h when using a speedometer set at 130! Implementing a comprehensive speed limit of, for example, 130 km/h would put an end to speeding, aggressive driving, and fuel-intensive driving habits involving full acceleration followed by braking. Overall, this would likely be beneficial in reducing fuel consumption and, consequently, emissions. Furthermore, a maximum speed limit of 130 km/h would eliminate the need for high-performance engines! A modern small car would have sufficient power with an engine producing 60-75 horsepower, while around 100 horsepower would be adequate for mid-size cars, and only trucks, buses, or other heavy equipment would require more.

However, we wouldn't necessarily have to take over the French highway tolls, as they divert traffic from the highways onto country roads, and thus directly through towns and villages.

It would be ecologically sound to reduce the taxation of fuel used by public transportation. If I want to subsidize public transport, then it should be worth it! But the tax exemption for aircraft fuel would end with me! It is unacceptable how much fuel airplanes consume for "short-haul" flights like Berlin to Frankfurt or Berlin to Hamburg. Despite successful development work in reducing fuel consumption and thus emissions, this is anything but responsible for such short distances. Air travel has its advantages for distances beyond 600-800 km or more.

'AdBlue'

'Excerpt from a car and motor magazine:'

'Due to the complex exhaust treatment system in BlueTec, fuel consumption will increase by another 4%...'

Considering the already 'standard' increased fuel consumption caused by the particulate filter, the fuel efficiency advantage of diesel engines over gasoline engines becomes increasingly smaller. Since gasoline engines now also feature turbocharging + a 6-speed transmission, I would definitely consider them as an alternative.

The 1.8 TFSI (160 hp) costs a good 2,600 € less than the 2.0 TDI (170 hp).

What do you think?

...especially since the 1.8 TFSI, according to current VW brochures, is the only "modern" turbocharged engine that achieves the specified power with regular gasoline and does not require premium gasoline, unlike the 2.0 TFSI or 1.4 TSI. Whether one can rely on the brochures .

Furthermore, gasoline engines start consuming more fuel as soon as you press the accelerator pedal even slightly harder. Therefore, I don't see any loss of the fuel efficiency advantage yet. The appeal of diesel is being diminished in other ways (expensive, complex, and complicated technology, a shrinking price difference between gasoline and diesel, higher taxes, and deliberate negative publicity).

Best regards!

dust path blower...


DIE ZEIT, February 15, 2007, Issue No. 08.
Step on it! / Go for it! / Hurry up!

Because particulate filters get dirty, drivers of diesel cars must regularly drive on the highway – because only at high speeds does the soot burn off. This is a ridiculous situation that harms the environment and costs car owners a lot of money. By Burkhard Straßmann.


© Scott Barbour/Getty Images.

Mr. K. was initially surprised. As a travel reporter traveling in the mountains, he noticed a flashing warning light on the dashboard of his brand-new Audi A4 1.9 TDI. The box with dots, as clarified by the hastily consulted owner's manual, indicated a clogged diesel particulate filter. The recommendation was to drive for at least ten minutes on an open road, and at a speed faster than 60 kilometers per hour. Mr. K. complained about the environmental absurdity of it all, but he followed the instructions. And sure enough, the light went out.

Unfortunately, on the next trip, there was no available tow truck when the warning light came on again. Mr. K. continued driving through narrow winding roads – "suddenly, an entire Christmas tree of lights lit up." He had to stop the car and call for assistance. The Audi was towed away, and Mr. K. rented a replacement vehicle. He was able to pick up his car from the workshop a week later. He learned that the necessary repair on the high-tech vehicle, as specialists call it, is "manual burn-off."

"Firing up the engine" – back in the sixties, this was a topic among young people who owned modified Kreidler Florett motorcycles and occasionally had to burn off excess oil buildup in the exhaust. Pilots of small airplanes often like to give the engine full throttle before takeoff to "clear out" the spark plugs. However, this practice from a time when fossil fuels were cheerfully and carelessly burned has a good chance of becoming a topic of conversation among car drivers again.

For years, manufacturers have been reluctant to install diesel particulate filters, but now they are increasingly being included as standard equipment in more and more diesel vehicles. For used cars, retrofit filters are available. And the debate surrounding the tax incentives for these filters is finally coming to an end. The legislative process has begun; from April onwards, there will be a penalty tax for vehicles without filters, and subsidies will be available for those who install them. The filter is on its way, but it will bring stress for many drivers.

Mr. K. is not unlucky, and his Audi isn't a lemon either. Klaus Walmrath from Aachen bought an Opel Zafira, a family car typically used for school runs, swimming lessons, and shopping. Within just a few weeks, he experienced three breakdowns with the brand new car: emergency repairs, trips to the workshop. There, they performed "manual cleaning" and fiddled with the software. After learning that this car sometimes needs to be driven hard, he drove the 100-kilometer route from Essen to Aachen at night in just under half an hour. That didn't help either. Now, Walmrath is waiting for the next malfunction. At that point, he only has one option: he wants his money back and a different car.

In the online forums and complaint sections frequented by car owners, one can find countless accounts of problems experienced by drivers. For example, in some Škoda Superbs, the onboard electronics will switch to a "emergency mode" (limiting speed to 60 kilometers per hour) on the left lane at speeds of 200 km/h due to a blockage. To add insult to injury, dealers sometimes scold customers for driving too slowly and infrequently! Taxi drivers complain about the high fuel consumption of their Daimlers, which is caused by the filter in city traffic. Renault owners are startled by letters from the manufacturer that remind them of their obligations if the "particle filter regeneration" warning light comes on: they must immediately drive at 80 km/h until the warning light goes out, or else take it to a workshop, possibly with an oil change. In one case, according to a driver's account, his automatic Opel even started moving on its own when the onboard electronics automatically initiated a regeneration process in front of a traffic light, causing the engine speed to increase.

The problems with particulate matter emissions and their reduction are central to the debate about the technical merits or drawbacks of diesel particulate filters. They partly explain the resistance from manufacturers to implementing this (well-known) technology in mass production. While the demand to capture particles before they damage lungs is understandable, the technical implementation is anything but trivial.

A particulate filter is a system of tiny channels into which the sooty exhaust gases are forced. The soot remains trapped in the porous walls of these channels. The more diligently the filter collects soot, the more it clogs the exhaust system. This results in a loss of power or an increase in fuel consumption – something familiar from mufflers. In commercial vehicles, such as city buses, filtration has been used for some time, and the filter must be cleaned regularly. This is not feasible for passenger cars. Here, the soot must be burned off completely. The problem: Like charcoal that needs a fire starter to ignite, soot requires temperatures of 500 to 600 degrees Celsius to burn. However, the temperature inside the filter is often only 300 degrees or less.

Peugeot und Citroën hatten die Zeichen der Zeit als Erste richtig interpretiert. Sie warfen im Jahr 2000 eine zwar verzwickte, aber funktionierende Filtertechnik auf den Markt. Der Trick im weltweit ersten Serien-Pkw mit Partikelfilter, dem 607 HDi: Ein Zusatzstoff, der in einem speziellen Tank mitgeführt und über eine Pumpe dosiert wird, setzt die Verbrennungstemperatur des Rußes drastisch herab. Allerdings muss das Additiv nach spätestens 80000 Kilometern nachgefüllt werden. Der Filter wird ausgetauscht, denn dummerweise produziert der Brandbeschleuniger selbst auch Asche. KeiA cheap and cheerful way to have fun.

The competition wanted a filtration system that could be forgotten about. For example, Eberspächer developed a catalytic particulate filter for Mercedes, Renault, VW, and others, which lowers the combustion temperature of soot by 200 degrees Celsius. It extracts the black particles from the exhaust gas until it detects a blockage (more accurately: increased back pressure). Then, the onboard computer decides that "regeneration" is needed. If the filter is too cold, the engine injects an excess amount of fuel – which increases the exhaust temperature. Ideally, 97 percent of the soot is burned off.

However, reality often deviates from the ideal when the driver frequently drives at low speeds, either by choice or necessity, especially in mountainous areas or within cities. If the temperature in the filter remains constantly at 200 degrees or even lower, the regeneration process will no longer work reliably, despite the use of additives and premium fuel. For those who work as field service technicians in urban areas, it may happen that they need to visit the workshop every few thousand kilometers: "Please perform a forced regeneration." Alternatively, driving on the highway for 15 minutes every 500 kilometers! Occasionally driving at higher speeds on country roads, Volkswagen states dryly, is a "technical requirement" of the particulate filter. This information is also included in the owner's manual.

The impression remains that a technology was put into mass production before it was fully mature. Meanwhile, the developers are working diligently on filters that reliably ignite soot even at low temperatures. The trend is to use extra fuel to ignite the material and inject it directly into the exhaust stream.

Paradoxically, retrofit filters for older vehicles are currently more common, but they are only a compromise. They are installed in the exhaust system, operate without regulation, have no sensors, and do not connect to the vehicle's onboard electronics. Installation takes about half an hour. Retrofit filters (from HJS, Twintec, or soon also Eberspächer) are technically not filters, but rather "particulate reduction systems." The particles in the exhaust gas that pass through the filter become trapped in metal meshes. Here, they are continuously burned with nitrogen dioxide, which comes from the catalytic converter – even at temperatures around 200 degrees Celsius. However, they allow up to 70 percent of the soot to pass through.

Despite the retrofitting requirement, there's still a market for it. Owners of older vehicles will receive a subsidy of 330 euros for the retrofit filter, which costs around 600 euros plus installation. Furthermore, vehicles without filters will be penalized at a rate of 1.20 euros per 100 cubic centimeters of engine displacement. While this penalty is relatively low, amounting to just 24 euros per year for a 2-liter diesel engine, those who emit unfiltered particles into the air risk additional driving bans in cities where particulate matter concentrations exceed the limit.

Word will spread among city drivers that retrofit filters are currently the first choice. While they do allow a lot of soot to pass through, the environmental footprint of standard high-tech filters, which sometimes need to be replaced after being clogged on the highway, is not necessarily something to celebrate either.


Source: http://www.zeit.de/2007/08/T-Russfilter?page=all



Have fun with the "diesel future".

Hi,

We can almost start betting on when the first "tuning tips" for filters will appear on the market, which will likely essentially recommend removing the internal components. Unless they're specifically comparing the pressure before and after the filter, I doubt the MSG (Mass Spectrometer) would even notice.

Otherwise, it's just politics aimed at squeezing more money out of people's pockets. Last year it was particulate matter; now there are filters that solve less than 5% of the problem (tire wear and other issues remain), while also increasing fuel consumption. Now it's about CO2 emissions, although... let's not be naive, a "filter car" will naturally emit more than others.

It's not really interesting that my car, with its ASV (emission control system) already close to the 120 mark today, still makes me pay more taxes than a gasoline-powered car with a 5.0 engine used by a politician in their official vehicle.

Best regards,

January.

Hello,

Are there already any experiences regarding the increased fuel consumption associated with retrofitting filters?
There are some that are added in addition to the existing catalytic converter (KAT), and others that combine the KAT and filter into a single component.
What do you think are the advantages and disadvantages of these two options?

Off-Topic:
Does the presence of a catalytic converter and muffler actually make that much difference? I'm inclined to doubt it.

Best regards, Matthias.

Hi,

Quote:

What do you think are the advantages and disadvantages of these two options?

I believe the motivation for this stems primarily from the requirement that when installing a DPF in a car whose catalytic converter has over 80,000 km, the catalytic converter must be replaced. Therefore, a separate solution would mean buying both a new DPF *and* a new catalytic converter, which probably no one would do, as it would further worsen the already poor cost-effectiveness calculation. The combination filters (catalytic converter + DPF) mitigate this problem considerably.

Best regards,

January.

That's probably the reason, because I believe the 'combined DPF' is only about €100 more expensive than a regular DPF.
Is the combination of the package and installation not better?
What about back pressure? DPF with catalytic converter versus combined DPF.

What about retrofitting DPFs (Diesel Particulate Filters) and their impact on fuel consumption in general?

Best regards, Matthias.

Could you please discuss such off-topic questions in a separate thread?

Then someone will be able to find these (actually important) questions using the search function! Here, this topic just disappears. Thank you!

What's off-topic about it? This thread is about information regarding the DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter). And that includes the two retrofit options I mentioned and their effects. Therefore, I think it fits perfectly here.

Best regards, Matthias.