Smoke Detection in Fire Alarm Systems

Hi, I've been really bothered by the excessive smoke coming from my ARL Leon lately, so I thought I'd reach out to see what you all think about it.

Gender-neutral fact:
At engine speeds of 1600-2200 RPM, I'm experiencing smoke emissions that appear quite extreme when viewed in the rearview mirror. This is especially noticeable in the dark.
With 'Volllast,' the whole situation is somewhat mitigated, meaning only a slight cloudiness.
The vehicle does not have a chip.


MWB shows no abnormalities that would suggest a problem with the LMM.
The performance is as expected.

Are there any comparisons available for the Golf 4 or Seat Leon that suggest this isn't a defect but simply a characteristic of the technology at the time?

Does anyone have a similar vehicle and live in the Nuremberg area and would be willing to do a test drive comparison?
That would be really great.

Sure, here's the translation:

'Thanks in advance.'

Hi.

My ARL also smokes a little bit, even without a chip.

Sure, here is the translation of the text from German to English:

"MFG" is an abbreviation for "Mit freundlichen Grüßen," which means "Sincerely" or "Best regards" in English.

Hello,
Could you please post the logs?

Within the RPM range of 1600 to 2200, the turbo should ideally be working effectively.
If he doesn't do that, you'll be stuck in the smoke zone.

My ASV file shows a Lambda value greater than or equal to 1, even with very low LM values. You can definitely see that in the reflection.
The ALR has a large turbo. Consequently, the range where the lambda value is greater than or equal to 1 will be larger than with my smaller turbo.

Okay, please post the LD values, injection quantities, and LM values.
(As known, MWB 003, 008, and 011, and possibly also MWB 010.)

Best regards, Jochen.

@Jochen: Lambda <= 1

Lambda <1> 1: Not enough fuel for the available air.
"Diesel engines typically operate with a Lambda value greater than 1 to ensure complete combustion. However, some people build diesel engines that produce excessive smoke and even add a power box for chip tuning, which is a very foolish thing to do. They insist on doing it, and then complain when the engine fails."

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verbrennungsluftverh%C3%A4ltnis

Best regards, Rainer.

Hello Rainer,

Okay, I understand. Please provide the text you would like me to translate from German to English.
I may have phrased that poorly, but...

When Lambda is greater than 1 and less than 1.2, you are already within the visible Russian range.
A series application with a lambda value consistently below 1.2 (outside of the transition ranges) will not meet Euro 3 standards without a DPF, and you should not be able to find such a system.

Lambda values of 1.0 or 1.1 in the lower RPM range can also cause a standard diesel engine to produce black smoke!

Sure, I can do that. Here is the translation of the text from German to English, with '>=' replaced by 'approximately' or '~':

'Approximately equal to' or '~' is a good way to express that something is close to a certain value. For example, if you want to say that a number is approximately 5, you could write 'approximately 5' or '~5'.

Here are some other examples of how to use 'approximately equal to' or '~':

* The temperature is approximately 20 degrees Celsius.
* The population of the city is approximately 1 million people.
* The cost of the product is approximately $100.

I hope this helps!

Best regards, Jochen.

Hi Jochen,

Quote:

Values of Lambda = 1.0 or 1.1 in the lower RPM range can also cause a standard diesel engine to produce black smoke! Replace ">=" with "approximately" or "~", then it will be exactly what I wanted to express.

Okay, here's the translation:

"That's correct. With a diesel particulate filter (DPF), you can start to see a black smoke plume in the rearview mirror when the lambda value is below approximately 1.2."

Best regards, Rainer.

Here are G1oms' diagrams; I hope they are roughly what you were looking for.

Regards, R00KIE.

Thank you, ROOKIE.
'I appreciate you helping me out; I'm not very familiar with diagrams.'

What are your opinions on the diagram?

Hello everyone,

@ROOKIE

Can you time-scale the log data?
This allows for a better assessment of the acceleration behavior.

When scaling using RPM, nothing particularly unusual is observed, except for the actual air mass in the range of 1700 to 2100 rpm, which increases significantly slower than it does up to 1700 rpm.

Speculatively, the charger might not be responding quickly enough, as it should ideally operate between 1700 and 2100 rpm and draw in a significant amount of air.

If the engine load in this range is low, the air mass may not be sufficient, and you may experience a drop in lambda (see above). (In other words, around a lambda value of 1.2, the readings become interesting in the range of 1700 to 2100 rpm, not just the graph itself.)
The regulations regarding smoking restrictions are not yet defined.

I'm unfortunately not familiar with the smoke limit specifications for the ARL engine. Perhaps someone could send me an Org file of the engine's data, and I can then investigate how much the lambda value can vary in the standard configuration.

Best regards, Jochen.

Okay, here's the chart as requested, along with the accompanying table.

Here's what else I've noticed about the engine: When you floor the accelerator and then abruptly release the gas pedal somewhere below 2000 RPM, there's a 'snapping' sound. It sounds similar to the sound of a compressed air gun being disconnected from the hose coupling under pressure. I'm not sure if that means anything.

P.S. (almost forgot): The logging operation was carried out on a slight incline.

Hello everyone,

Nice, now you can see a bit more.

I'm not really a fan of the LD setup.
Down low, i.e., up to approximately 1650 rpm, the turbocharger isn't really active. This could be due to the relatively large turbocharger, but it could also be caused by a vacuum sensor that is clogged or dirty.

In this area, the air mass is very low, which correspondingly limits the smoke. Here, you have Lambda values of approximately 1.1 (!). You can clearly see this smoke in the mirror. Only above 1900 rpm does the Lambda value exceed 1.2, and the visible cloudiness disappears.
Furthermore, I find the oversteer, which is quite noticeable in my Seat, to be very minimal in your case.
Basically, Ulf would welcome this behavior. The question is whether it is intentional or caused by a slow charger control system.
Furthermore, the LD (likely referring to a specific measurement or value) drop at 2247 rpm is undesirable and certainly not intentional.

When using full throttle, the whole thing is somewhat mitigated, meaning only a slight blurring occurs.

Given that the engine was running at full load and the resulting smoke is considered acceptable, I suspect the problem lies in a difficult-to-operate turbocharger control system or a stuck-open EGR valve.
Also, here's the translation:

'Also, sometimes measure the vacuum pressure of the control system!'

'Why don't you run a log at a partial load? If that's considered extreme behavior, we should be able to see it very clearly.'

Best regards, Jochen.

With full throttle, the whole thing is somewhat mitigated, meaning only a slight blurring.
'In my opinion, this statement refers to the engine's speed range, not its load condition.'

g1om wrote:

At 1600-2200 RPM, I have smoke coming out that looks quite extreme when viewed in the rearview mirror. This is especially noticeable in the dark. With "Volllast," the whole situation is somewhat mitigated, meaning only a slight cloudiness. FZG does not have a chip.

Jochen_145 wrote:

Down low, meaning up to approximately 1650 rpm, the turbocharger is not really active. This can be due to the relatively large turbocharger, but it can also be caused by a vacuum diaphragm that is clogged. In this area, the air mass is very low, which correspondingly limits the smoke. Here, you have Lambda values of approximately 1.1 (!). You can clearly see this smoke in the mirror. Only above 1900 rpm does the Lambda value exceed 1.2, and the visible cloudiness disappears. Furthermore, I find the oversteer, which is quite noticeable in my Seat, to be very minimal in your case. Basically, Ulf would welcome this behavior. The question is whether it is intentional or caused by a slow charger control system.

So:
The ARL (presumably a specific system or platform) has several data states, and some of these data states release different lambda values when the system is accelerated.
Based on the 12mbar resolution of the LD-Log data, I suspect that g1om has a 019KG MSG, and its lowest lambda value at full throttle is between 1600 and 2200 rpm, around 1.16, otherwise it's between 1.18 and 1.22.

To analyze the cause of the LD underswing, the LD duty cycle in the log data series is needed.

Wegen der 12mbar-Stufung der LD-Logdaten vermute ich mal, daß g1om ein 019KG MSG hat
Good man!

I removed the keyboard data to save time when creating the charts. I'm just going to paste the almost unprocessed log here; it's probably the easiest way.

hi
Thank you for your answers; they also motivated me to take a closer look.
Vacuum hoses, EPDWs, AGR: I've checked all of these, both with the vacuum pump and by replacing them, but unfortunately, I haven't found anything wrong.

The turbo boosts cleanly to its maximum limit. Vacuum is maintained, and hose connections are in good condition.
The AGR (presumably a valve or component) opens and closes completely, even under vacuum, and is functioning correctly.

'The whole thing is slowly starting to interest me! Apparently, there are multiple data sets for the vehicle, and it might be possible to do something about the smoke issue. Otherwise, I've also noticed a slight jerkiness in the 1600-1900 RPM range, which could indicate a problem with the PD (common rail) or the ETZ (turbocharger). The ETZ refers to a statement that the turbocharger is causing problems due to pressure spikes, which is causing the jerkiness. However, I don't agree with that view. I suspect a minor, non-FS (fault system) related mechanical issue in the fuel preparation system.'

If it would be helpful, I could also create some logs with R00KIE.


Written on: 07-09-2007, 0:08
Title: Almecht Exhaust Emissions

'Die Sonne scheint hell, und die Vögel zwitschern fröhlich. Ein leichter Wind weht durch die Bäume, und die Blätter rascheln leise. Es ist ein wunderschöner Tag, um draußen zu sein.'

Okay, so we've already reached a certain point with all of this.

I had my car in for service last week, and of course, I mentioned the excessive smoke. Their initial response was, 'That's perfectly normal.'
It's good that a close friend of mine also works there, and I then said that only he could 'work on' the car, which caused a slight furrow to appear on his forehead.
After I was mostly certain (thanks to your help) that the loader or parts of the air intake system had been hit, my friend started searching, and (after a week *g*) he actually found something.

Note: Loader with exhaust manifold!
The turbocharger itself had insufficient adjustment, and the exhaust manifold was not properly secured to cylinder 1, which caused the manifold to warp and allowed exhaust gases to escape elsewhere.

This defect only became apparent to me during disassembly, as a heat shield covers it; therefore, I couldn't detect it during initial inspection.

So far, so good. It's running a bit better now, but I don't think the smoke reduction has improved much. I had a brief opportunity to drive it. I'll pick up the car on Saturday and might do another measurement over the weekend.

P.S. Unfortunately, the young birds left a dent in the right wing, which needs to be removed tomorrow.

Unfortunately, due to a lack of goodwill, the LL hoses and the EGR valve could not be cleaned. Do you think it would be worthwhile to have them cleaned?

Rainer K. wrote:

With an ARL (Abgasrückführung) system, a soot plume can be observed in the rearview mirror when the lambda value is below approximately 1.2.

Hmm, it seems that the amount of soot also depends on the absolute quantities.

In the Polo, I have the same PID values as the ARL. In the RPM range of 1000-1200 rpm, the car (with standard settings for parameters like opacity) shows lambda values of around 1.1 during "acceleration," according to the log data.
Despite this, recently, at dawn, while traveling at approximately 50 km/h in 5th gear with the accelerator fully pressed, and even within the headlight beam of the following vehicle, there was no visible smoke.
They only start working around 1500 rpm, when the engine begins to gradually pull, and according to the software, the blurring already indicates a higher excess of air, and additionally, the atomization should be much better due to the higher injection pressure, which is speed-dependent, compared to 1100 rpm.

Quote:

The turbo adjusts smoothly to the end stop . The vacuum is maintained. Bitte gib mir den deutschen Text, den du übersetzt haben möchtest. Note: Loader with exhaust manifold! The loader itself had insufficient adjustment . . .

How does that all fit together?

Quote:

and the manifold was not really tight at cylinder 1, which led to the manifold becoming warped and, of course, exhaust gases being able to escape elsewhere.

And now? Did he straighten the old catalytic converter by tightening the mounting bolts?

Quote:

Unfortunately, the warranty no longer covers cleaning the LL hoses and the AGR valve. Do you think it would be worth doing it anyway?

Only where thick layers of soot and oil, several millimeters thick, are present.