Audi & VW Roadside Assistance: ADAC June '09

Hello everyone!

"This is important and useful information, so I'm going to include a list of links here for rescue cards, covering all Audi and Volkswagen models."

I hope many people participate, because the effort involved is absolutely disproportionate to the benefit .

Audi:
http://www.audi.de/etc/medialib/ngw/product/special_purpose_vehicles.Par.0197.File.pdf/rlf_audi_modelluebersichten.pdf

VW:
http://www.volkswagen.de/etc/medialib/vwcms/virtualmaster/de/Models/sonderfahrzeuge/rettungsfahrzeuge/web-special.Par.0018.File.pdf/final_modelluebersichten_02.pdf


Best regards from Munich!


PS: Actually, it should belong under "VAG ... KNOWLEDGE database," but I'm not allowed to post there.

Okay, I'll print that out.
What I'm interested in knowing in this context is how long the capacitors in the airbag system will retain their charge after the battery is disconnected.
I've heard reports ranging from a few minutes to half an hour regarding the duration of the FW circles.
The octopus-shaped steering wheel cover doesn't really help either if the sides and roof airbags deploy during a rescue operation.
Then I also have a question about the possibility of static discharge igniting the ignition module while working on the exposed cables, for example in the B-pillar. Is the energy from such a discharge even sufficient to cause that?

Okay, based on my admittedly limited knowledge, I can't imagine that the airbag system could or should be able to trigger an airbag several minutes after the battery is disconnected. In practice, it probably doesn't make much sense to use capacitors to ensure ignition for several minutes after a voltage interruption (e.g., due to a crash). I might be persuaded to accept 3 seconds, but nothing beyond that.
From my experience with both the T5 (2004) and the A4 (1998), I know that even if the starter motor becomes slightly more difficult to turn over due to a battery that is not fully charged, the airbag control unit (ECU) may store an error message such as "Supply voltage - signal too low - intermittent." In my opinion, a low supply voltage likely prevents the airbags from deploying. It's possible that a firefighter might disconnect the battery in order to rescue someone!

According to a friend who has some kind of airbag training certificate (or something like that *g*), the airbag control unit (software-wise) is "destroyed" in every crash above a certain acceleration. For example, in a rear-end collision, where the airbags should not deploy – except possibly for the seatbelt pretensioners. In such cases, the airbag warning light comes on; the control unit needs to be replaced!
While there are companies that can restore the stability control system to its original state through software updates, the G-sensors are definitely damaged and need replacement.
By the way, just recently there was a topic here about junk from online auctions related to airbags... I would NEVER EVER install something like that!

As far as I know (at least), there are two reasons why the airbag system should not deploy again after a crash.
1. Undervoltage detection and shutdown.
2.) Software- (and possibly hardware) based locking after a crash.
3.) No activation when "ignition is OFF" (terminal 15 < 10.5V).

Static discharge as a cause of ignition...
Here's another topic where I have doubts, based on my electronic knowledge as a certified master technician in television technology. How many Ohms does such an igniter have? 2, 3, or 5 Ohms? I can't imagine, even with the best will, that the necessary ignition current could be generated solely through ESD unless you happen to be Mr. 100,000 Volts .
I was actually planning to test this with a defective airbag using various pre-resistors in the kOhm range, to see at what point the ignition current is reached. It's just hard to get your hands on old airbags like that .


Overall, I hope that the rescue card actually provides more help and doesn't cause rescuers to avoid vehicles with advanced safety features out of fear of airbags .

Best regards from Munich!

I need to investigate where this practice of delayed payouts came from.
What is the energy level of a spark?
I once encountered a dispatcher at a fire department control center who had a noticeable blue spark jumping off him, about 1 centimeter in size. We both jumped and wondered if he was experiencing some kind of electrical shock.
The cause was the poorly grounded carpet, which was later replaced with a carpet featuring a copper mesh and flat conductor grounding system.
So, if a rear-end collision occurs or the vehicle rolls over in a way that triggers the side airbags, is it then no longer possible to activate the front airbags via the control unit?
It seems there is current flowing through the yellow cable after all.

Don't be afraid; you will be rescued. Rescuers often take significantly higher risks, consciously or unconsciously, in emergency situations than most other people would.
fire department klaus

I don't know exactly how much energy is needed to trigger it, and so far, no one has been able to tell me definitively... Supposedly, it's a relatively small amount of energy, enough that even a non-airbag-safe (digital) multimeter in the ohm range can trigger it. A standard DMM measures in the low-ohm range (measurement range < 200 ohms) with approximately 0.2 volts and a maximum current of 1mA - more typically around 200µA.
However, since the airbag must deploy within milliseconds, I think it would require a few more amperes than that.
Therefore, I'm interested in trying a spark test at 12V, starting with a resistance of over 10 kOhms. Perhaps each time with a defined duration of, say, 10 seconds.
Based on a rough estimate, at least 100 mA of current would need to flow through the igniter wire for it to burn out, which would correspond to a power of 1.2 watts.

As I said: To my knowledge, a "locked" airbag control unit will no longer deploy - and even if it goes "boom" five more times .

Best regards from Munich!

Update:

Mercedes-Benz (DaimlerChrysler), including a rescue guide for helpers.

http://www.mercedes-benz.fi/content/media_library/hq/hq_mpc_reference_site/passenger_cars/solutions/PassengerCars_Solutions_Rescueguide_08-2005_pdf.object-Single-MEDIA.download.tmp/Passengercars_Solutions_Rescueguide_08-2005.pdf

Best regards from Munich!

PS: News: Waiting time of 90 seconds after disconnecting the battery; according to Bosch, this prevents any (subsequent) triggering of the airbag control unit.

DieselBär30x wrote:

Update: Mercedes-Benz (DaimlerChrysler), including a rescue guide for helpers. http://www.mercedes-benz.fi/content/media_library/hq/hq_mpc_reference_site/passenger_cars/solutions/PassengerCars_Solutions_Rescueguide_08-2005_pdf.object-Single-MEDIA.download.tmp/Passengercars_Solutions_Rescueguide_08-2005.pdf Best regards from Munich! PS: News: Waiting time of 90 seconds after battery disconnection; according to Bosch, this prevents any (subsequent) triggering by the airbag control unit.

"You can see it lasts longer than cutting a battery cable or a dead airbag, but why up to 90 seconds?"
Is there a condenser installed somewhere?

I don't know either... *shrugs shoulders*

I think they become "dead" almost immediately, and the (car) manufacturers want to build in an additional safety margin so that they cannot be held liable for damages. See also my previous post about "overly immediate" undervoltage detection.
By the way, the MB-Info documentation also states that the airbag control unit will never trigger an activation when the ignition is turned off! There is no mention of a (90 second) waiting period here.
The issue of fire safety is also discussed. The gas generators should not trigger until 160°C and should be "safe" up to 180°C. Yes, I was also looking at that with a puzzled expression, but I think they want to allow for a tolerance of +/- 20°C in order to be on the safe side...

Best regards from Munich!

After studying the maps, I have to say that I am quite surprised...

Where vehicles should have reinforcements and where they shouldn't.

I'm not sure if everything will eventually make sense.

EOS: No reinforced B-pillar and sills (unusual for a convertible).
Golf V, only reinforcements added to the doors (and where should these be mounted?).
"The Jetta, as well as the B-pillar (Golf platform)."
"The Passat also shares components like the dashboard, door panels, and B-pillar (all from the same platform)."
Tiguan, only the upper half of the B-pillar (this would be strange - what about the lower half?).

There are absolutely no reinforcements in the A2 (That's completely wrong).
The structure is different for the A4 B6 and B7 models - at least, that's what I understand.
B8 - only the upper part of the B-pillar is reinforced.
A5 as well, but only the front part of the sills.
The convertible has absolutely no reinforcement in the sills or B-pillars – it's hard to believe.

Well, it's hard to believe that amplifiers from 15 years ago can compete with those available today.

Normally, I'm quite familiar with the body designs of the Volkswagen Group.

Who creates these maps, and according to what definitions are they made?

Hi David!

"...what kind of stuff are you asking about...? Unbelievable! "

Okay, I may not know much about it, but I strongly believe that the manufacturers themselves probably know best (or will know).
I believe the EOS has extremely reinforced sections around the A-pillar.

What these rescue maps likely intend to convey is that they indicate specific points where the blades of firefighters' rescue shears will not break.
Does that make sense?
A2 is mostly aluminum, right? Adding a reinforcement made of aluminum to the rescue shears won't make any difference and therefore isn't worth mentioning or including in the drawing.
Wissen tu ich's nicht!!! Pure speculation.

Greetings from Munich!

The problem likely lies with the high-strength metal sheets and pipes within the doors, as it's difficult to get through them.
Rescue shears don't break, at least not when they are new and in good condition!
The core is softer, while the surface is likely hardened but can be re-sharpened.
So far, I've found that if the material is too thick, the shear simply stops due to hydraulic overload; in that case, you need to stop, let it cool down, and try again from a different location. With inexperienced users, the shear can twist and deflect, causing the sheet metal to get caught between the blades, which could potentially bend or even break the material if the process is continued. However, this would contradict everything one learns about proper operation.

High-strength sheets are, in my opinion, only used where crash instability is a concern. Otherwise, it would be too expensive/heavy.

One would need to know if high-strength materials are used in areas where there are no additional reinforcements but which are known to be weak points (e.g., sills on a convertible).

The goal is to precisely define the cutting points and identify anchor points for the stamp to push forward the A-pillar, while avoiding the gas generators in those areas. That's how I see it as well.

Under http://www.rettungsleitfaeden.de/leitfaden.html, there is a very nice overview of the...
Rescue guides from various manufacturers.


Best regards, Micha.

teileklaus wrote:

The problem is likely with high-strength metal sheets and pipes in the doors, as it's difficult to get through them.

That's probably the case. A convertible is optimized for minimal elastic deformation, which requires large cross-sections. High-strength sheet metal behaves similarly to softer sheet metal during driving and therefore isn't necessary; in fact, if you already have to make everything more rigid for stability reasons, it might even be possible without using high-strength sheets, which are also more expensive.