Die Geschichte des 827er Vierzylinder Motors (viel Text) | Posts 16+

Thomas K. wrote:

Hello Bertil, "Sorry to correct you, but the 1.8-liter engine had a stroke of 86.4mm, not 84.5mm. Also, the crankshaft used by Chrysler is not identical to the 1.8-liter crankshaft, except for the stroke. Furthermore, the same Chrysler crankshaft was also found in the Bundeswehr Iltis vehicle with a 1.7-liter engine."

Das ist alles richtig, aber die Vorserien vom 1.8er hatten tatsächlich die Chrysler KW drin. Der Grund dafür war das das ursprüngliche 827er Gehäuse nicht genügend Platz für mehr Hub bot. Im Laufe der Serienentwicklung wurde dann das KW Gehäuse so erweitert das man die 86,4mm KW unterbekommen hat. Wer den 1.8 er aus dem G1 kennt (ich hab den DX im Jetta drin) dem wird nicht entgangen sein das es sich um ein komplett neues Motorgehäuse handelt. WWater passages, oil channels, and various other minor modifications adorn the 1.8-liter engine block.

I have gendered the text to avoid any misunderstandings regarding the Chrysler KW. Thank you.

Hello Bertil,

Thank you, I learned something new again .

Yes, I also had the DX; back then, according to AMS, it was supposedly the best four-cylinder engine in its power class.

I've kept the legendary G camshaft as a memento, since the car had the 276° version from Schrick installed.
Mei war das ein geiles Auto.....

What is the displacement of the 1.9 TDI and the 'new' 2.0 TDI engines?

Thomas K. wrote:

... I've kept the legendary G camshaft as a memento, since the car had the 276° version from Schrick installed. Mei war das ein geiles Auto.....

.... ja die "G"-Welle .... Das hätte zur Größten Motorkatastrophe nach dem ZR Debakel vom 115PS TDI führen können. Haufenweise gebrochene Ventilfedern. Gut nur das die nicht so lange verbaut wurde sonst wäre das Debakel vorprogrammiert gewesen. Ich habe in meinem DX die 276er Schrick rausgeworfen und die G-Welle wieder reingemacht. gleichzeitig hab ich aber die Verstärkten Ventilfedern von Schrick drin. JNow you can hear each valve individually, but at least it stays together.

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Welchen Hub haben eigentlich die 1,9 TDI bzw. der "neue" 2,0 TDI ?

Do you find it here?

The 1.9 TDI engine has a massive piston stroke of 95.5mm. The 2.0 should only have a slightly larger bore. Unfortunately, I don't have any information about that yet.

@ germlin

And I never understood why VW still offered a 2.0 85 kW gasoline engine in the Golf Mk4, a power output that Opel already had in the Vectra A back in 1988 (specifically, the C20NE engine).

Please provide the text you would like me to translate from German to English. I will then give you only the translation, without any explanations.

Bertil wrote:

The 2.0 was supposed to only have a slightly larger bore. Unfortunately, I don't have any information about that yet.

However, I have. On the Volkswagen website, it states that the bore is 81.0 mm and the stroke is 95.5 mm.

Those who can read definitely have an advantage.

@Bertil

So, I drove the Schrick 276 camshaft with the original valve springs for quite a while – about 150,000 km – and didn't experience any problems.

Did you do anything else to the engine? I used to have the mass airflow sensor and fuel distributor from a 1.6-liter engine, as well as the warm-up regulator and throttle body from an Audi 5E.

Given your expertise in this area, do you know if the rumor is true that the 'G' camshaft was already used in the 1.6 GTI? The reason for this speculation is that very few engines actually reached the advertised 110 horsepower, with most only producing around 95-100 horsepower. Subsequently, there were more frequent instances of valve spring breakage, leading to a reversion to the older camshaft. The 'G' camshaft wasn't reintroduced until the 1.8 DX model.
I haven't found anything conclusive about this in the books I've consulted so far.

What was unique about the 827 two-valve engine was that it didn't have a crossflow cylinder head; instead, the intake and exhaust ports were located on the same side (for both diesel and gasoline versions), with the exception of the 16V, 20V, and the 'new' (since around 1999) 2.0L engine with 85 kW, which did have a crossflow cylinder head.

Thomas K. wrote:

So, I drove the 276 camshaft with the original valve springs and a rather high mileage of 150,000 km... without any problems.

It doesn't necessarily have to go wrong, but it could. I just wanted to be on the safe side, as Schrick recommends using different valve springs for camshafts with a lobe lift greater than 10.5mm.

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Did you do anything else to the engine? I remember having the airflow sensor and fuel distributor from a 1.6-liter engine, as well as the warm-up regulator and throttle body from an Audi 5E installed back then.

Okay, I'm familiar with this conversion (I have the same ). However, my crankshaft is completely balanced and calibrated. The ignition timing can be adjusted using an adjustable distributor wheel to more easily modify the engine characteristics. The distributor comes from a Porsche 914 and now has contacts (the original DX had a TSZ-H ignition). This allows for engine speeds of up to 7500 RPM (with a limiter at 7300).And all of this is not recognizable in the standard parts.

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Since you are so knowledgeable about this topic, do you know if the rumor is true that the "G" camshaft was already used in the 1.6 GTI? This is because very few engines reached the specified 110 horsepower, and most only had around 95-100 horsepower. Then, there were more frequent instances of valve spring breakage, so it was switched back to the old camshaft. The "G" camshaft wasn't used again until the 1.8 DX.

The G-wave was installed from 1979 to 1980, and it was no longer used in 1981 and 1982. After that, I unfortunately have no information about whether or where it was used.

You can find more information in "Gert Hack / VW Tuning ... how to make it faster," published by Motorbuch Verlag (p. 148). It also mentions "isolated" cases of valve spring breakage with the G-camshaft. The DX model received new valve springs at some point. This may have been an adjustment made for use with the G-camshaft.



For those who may not know what a "G-wave" is/was:
The G camshaft is a crankshaft with an asymmetrical valve opening profile (235°/233°, compared to the standard 230°) and a lift increased from 10.3mm to 10.8mm. While the power gain was "only" about 1.5 horsepower, the torque curve of the engine improved significantly.
The name G-Wave simply comes from the marking on the NW... a large "G".

Hello Bertil,

'How did you adjust the ignition timing? I believe that because the 914 has a boxer engine, the distributor has a completely different characteristic curve for the ignition timing, or, as far as I know, it didn't have vacuum advance.'

Without the other camshaft or the warm-up regulator from the 5E engine installed... wow, that's something! At full throttle, it seems like almost unburned fuel is coming out, or it's producing a brownish smoke, right?

'Back then, I did a CO measurement at full load, and it showed around 5.5-6%. According to Motorentuner Kolb in Ingolstadt, that was almost too good; they said the '4' should be before the decimal point. Then, following their advice, I installed a K&N air filter and a Supersprint exhaust manifold with a Gillet exhaust system. Unfortunately, I didn't measure it again afterwards.'

I have a book called 'Now I'll Make Him Faster,' which touches on the topic of G-nocks, but only briefly.

Thomas K. wrote:

... "How did you adjust the ignition timing? I believe that because the 914 has a boxer engine, the distributor has a completely different characteristic curve for the ignition timing, or, as far as I know, it didn't have vacuum advance."

Yes, the distributor has a different characteristic curve. The ignition timing advances slightly at higher RPMs. You'll have to make some compromises there. Using standard values won't work well in that case. The distributor already has vacuum advance, and it seems to adjust in both directions. There are probably different types. Also, you'll need to modify the centrifugal advance mechanism a bit.

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Without the other camshaft or the warm-up regulator from the 5E engine installed... wow, that's something! At full throttle, it seems like almost unburned fuel is coming out, or it's producing a brownish smoke, right?

Oh, that should be fine. The smoking won't cause any problems. Also, the valve seats are slightly offset outwards to increase the cross-sectional area.
Wohlgemerkt die Abregelung erfolgt bei mir zwischen 7300 und 7500 (Standart 6500-6800) und da brauchst du schon einiges an Sprit. Mein Kat hat sich bisher auch noch nicht über Überfettung beschwert. Mit stabilem Standgas brauchst du allerdings nicht zu rechen.
I don't remember the exact measurements anymore. The engine was built by Oettinger, and I was there when those measurements were taken (it's not far from here). But that was before the company's real estate troubles (so it happened a long time ago).
However, the DX engine is currently being replaced with a EG engine (1.6 GTi) to restore the car's originality.

...and you replace this 'dream engine' with an original 1.6-liter .
That's going to leave you short on power, probably by around 25-35 horsepower.

I don't quite understand the thing about the power cut-off at over 7300 RPM, because you only reach that speed in first and second gear anyway, and there's no more power to be had at that point. Mine, according to the dyno test, had 128 horsepower at 5600 RPM .

Wasn't the DX trim level ever a standard option for the Jetta?

Thomas K. wrote:

...and you replace this "dream engine" with an original 1.6-liter . That's going to leave you short on power, probably by around 25-35 horsepower.

Unfortunately, I understand that as well, but if you want to drive historically, there's no other way around it.

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I don't quite understand the thing about the engine cutting out at over 7300 RPM; you only reach that speed in first and second gear anyway, and there's no more power to be had at that point.

Small wheels - short gearing. To at least reach the standard top speed, you have to rev the engine higher.
Übrigens reicht für den Motor "normales" Super + nicht aus, damit klingelt er furchtbar. Da muss ich immer noch etwas nachhelfen.

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Mine had, according to the dynamometer at the time, 128 horsepower at 5600 RPM .

As far as I remember, it was 125 at 6300.

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Gabs denn den DX nicht serienmäßig auch mal im Jetta ?

Scholars are debating this. It's probably not the case in Germany, but it's quite likely in the USA (although with a catalytic converter and still only 112 horsepower!). In Germany, there was a Jetta GX 1.8, but it "only" had 98 horsepower.
"But frankly, I don't care. With the 1800cc engine, I have to compete in the modified class against those powerful 2-liter cars, and I simply can't match an Escort 1 with over 200 horsepower. With the 1600cc engine, I can race in the standard class, and with 110 horsepower, you're already quite competitive there."
Here's another thing: my Jetta is a '79 model, making it one of the first GLI Jettas ever sold. The previous owner (a good friend and motorsport enthusiast) ordered the car in September '79 at the IAA motor show during the unveiling of the Jetta as a family car. Twelve years later, when his children finally arrived, he sold the car to me. I've now owned the car for another 12.5 years.

Hello Bertil,

Hartmann used to sell these modifications for the DX engine as a 136 hp kit (although with a 282° camshaft), claiming a top speed of 206 km/h! I've always considered those figures to be highly exaggerated. The standard Golf GTI 1.8 was rated at 183 km/h.
A former acquaintance had this Hartmann kit installed, and the car was undrivable – it jerked, had an extremely unstable idle, and consumed fuel like crazy. It wasn't until Kolb Motorsport adjusted the settings that the engine started to produce power with reasonable fuel consumption. At the time, Kolb also recommended replacing the Hartmann TeZet manifold with a Supersprint one, adding a Gillet exhaust system, and changing the camshafts from 282° to 276°.Basically, I just replicated the entire setup and had Kolb adjust the system pressure in the metering unit to accommodate the 5E regulator.

If your 1.8-liter engine can't handle S+ fuel and a rich mixture, then your pre-ignition is likely occurring much too early at high RPMs.
Back then, Kolb set the ignition timing at approximately 5500 RPM. The idle setting was then adjusted to 12 degrees before top dead center (BTDC) instead of the usual 6 degrees BTDC.

Was this US version of the DX then, an unregulated mess?
'About 12 years ago, I looked at a Scirocco Mk1 in California that had a 1.6 GTI engine and a catalytic converter, but it was tuned down to 95 horsepower. The seller swore that the engine was original to the car.'

Thomas K. wrote:

If your 1.8-liter engine can't even handle S+ and the rich mixture, then your pre-ignition at high RPMs is likely occurring much too early.

The ringing has nothing to do with pre-ignition .
When the engine is warm, you absolutely must not turn it off carelessly, otherwise the starter motor won't be able to crank it properly. The measured compression pressures are at 15 bar (the upper limit is actually 13). Someone definitely did a good job with the head machining. I don't have any full-load knocking. The ignition timing has been set as early as possible with S+. In the partial load range, you can adjust the ignition timing however you like, but you won't be able to eliminate the knocking.
Ich hab den Motor (bis auf die Block Mechanik) selbst so hingebaut. It's running great.

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Was this US version of the DX then, an unregulated mess?

G-Category.

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Ich hab mir mal in Kalifornien vor 12 Jahren einen 1er Scirocco angeschaut mit 1,6er GTI Maschine und ebenfalls Kat, aber geregelt mit 95PS. Der Verkäufer hat Stein und Bein geschworen der Motor wäre original in dem Auto.

Yes, the Scirocco had that engine option. However, the 1.6-liter engine was not available in the Jetta or Golf models in the United States.

Hi,

Markus H. wrote:

... However, from an older AMS document, I learned that the new generation of SDI engines is also being switched to PD. (There was a discussion about this here before). It's supposed to be the 2.0-PD-SDI with 75 horsepower...

After a brief off-topic discussion about the G1 GTI, I received some more information about the 827.

The 2.0 SDI is indeed a PD engine with 55 kW / 75 PS. On the VW website, the technical specifications are now publicly available. The engine is supposed to be available from February. I have also added this information to the article.

[Translating...]

Hi,
das geht wohl noch auf https://community.dieselschrauber.org/en/viewtopic.php?t=1679&highlight=827
zurück.
Halte das Beharren an dem zu kleinen Zylinderabstand auch für übel. Themodynamisch mag so ein Langhuber ja günstig sein, nicht nur für Diesel, auch für Schichtladung beim Benziner. Die heute übliche Leistungsdichte wird dann wegen der kleinen Ventile schwierig zu realisieren.
Bei den Benzinern wurden ja nicht ohne Grund die 5V-Köpfe eingeführt.
Kann hier auch der Grund liegen, weshalb den (2V-)PD-Motoren bei hoher Last und Drehzahl ein so hoher Verbrauch nachgesagt wird?
D.h. anschaulich formuliert wird die Frischluft mit Gewalt durch die kleien Ventilöffungen in die Zylinder gepreßt, dazu ist ein erhöhter Ladedruck nötig, dessen Erzeugung natürlich Leistung kostet.

Hello Bertil,

I just read your article while browsing online this Sunday.

Simply amazing!!!!!!!!!!

Best regards,
K. Oldewurtel