ASZ Ford Galaxy - Power deficiency

Hello everyone,

I need some help with arguing with Ford.

Subject:
I have a Ford Galaxy for work, with a 96kW PD engine. For some time now, the car has been lacking power, which is noticeable by the maximum speed indicated on the speedometer. Originally with a top speed of over 200 km/h, the maximum speed is now only 180 km/h.

Since this is a leased vehicle, the troubleshooting and repair must be carried out by the workshop.

Current status:
- No errors in the error memory.
- New LMM.
- A PD injector was replaced on cylinder 1 3000 km ago.
- Turbocharger replaced less than 20,000 km ago.

Current mileage: 151,000 km, first registration: 06/2004.

After the WS (presumably a piece of equipment) was unable to proceed further, a performance diagram was created today using an LPS002 - see attachment.

According to the diagram, the vehicle has full engine power, with a maximum of 98 kW. However, the maximum speed is only 180 km/h - this has also been determined and confirmed by the Ford workshop.
Data in the chart, back side:
p(gem) = 96 kW
Nominal speed of 4000 RPM corresponds to 162 km/h.
Barometric pressure is 1026.
Intake air temperature is 8°C.
P(norm) = 94 kW

Can anyone here offer some advice or help me interpret this performance graph? I'm unfortunately lacking the ability to compare it to other data.
Are 30kW of power loss in the powertrain normal?

According to the workshop, the mechanics (transmission/drive shafts/brakes) were checked and no issues were found. The maximum speed (Vmax) is 180 km/h, both with and without the climate control system activated.

Thank you in advance.

Dieter.

Okay, so, first of all, a 30kW loss in the powertrain is rather unusual to impossible. Just imagine what that would imply. Normally, losses in a vehicle are due to friction, which would then lead to heat. That would give you a seriously hot transmission.
Before a performance test is carried out, it's usually a good idea to collect all the vehicle's data. What exact values does the mass airflow sensor (MAF) provide? What is the boost pressure like? What is the condition of the diesel filter and the air filter? Did the problem occur after a maintenance procedure (e.g., timing belt replacement) or after the described replacement of the common rail injectors (CRIs)? Just to ask a simple question, are you perhaps using oversized winter tires? If there is a leak in the charge air cooler system, the EGR valve will function correctly.

A performance graph like that is a nice thing to have. But it's only useful if the measurement is accurate, was taken in the correct gear, and the entire test report was created by someone who knows what they're doing. I personally cannot assess your diagram as correct or incorrect due to my lack of experience with it.

The Galaxy is supposed to have a top speed of around 188 km/h, if I'm correct. That would mean approximately 195 km/h according to the speedometer. But it also depends on the route and other factors. So many questions and so many unknowns.

Hmm. So, first of all, a 30kW loss in the powertrain is rather unusual to impossible. Imagine what would have to happen for that to occur. Normally, loss in a vehicle is due to friction, which would then lead to heat. That would give you a seriously hot transmission.

'There are already losses in the powertrain – the power is measured at the clutch, after all... I'm just missing the comparison to see what's considered normal.' I also think that 30kW is a bit too much.


Before a performance test is carried out, it's often a good idea to collect all the vehicle's measurement data. What exact values does the mass airflow sensor (MAF) provide? What is the boost pressure? What is the condition of the diesel filter? What is the condition of the air filter? Did the problem occur after a maintenance procedure (e.g., replacing the Zündrotor - ignition rotor) or after the described replacement of the Power Distribution Element (PDE)?


The performance degradation is gradual; I started experiencing significant problems with the air conditioning system during the summer, and it's been getting worse since then. After replacing the turbocharger in October, the performance returned for about 1 week (4000 km)...
The performance was equally poor both before and after the PDE change.
The problem with the measurements is that I'm not allowed to do anything to the car itself, as it's a leased vehicle with a full-service contract. So, I'm completely at the mercy of the workshop...


To put it bluntly, are you perhaps using oversized winter tires? If there is a leak in the charge air cooler system, the EGR valve will function correctly.

Winter tires in the standard size 195.


A performance graph like that is a nice thing to have. But it's only useful if the measurement is accurate, was taken in the correct gear, and the entire test report was created by someone who knows what they're doing. I personally cannot assess your diagram as correct or incorrect due to my lack of experience with it.

That's my main point of focus. To what extent is the performance curve reliable? It was created at what appears to be the largest Bosch service center in the area, and since it's also the only place in the area with a dynamometer, I assume they have reasonably competent staff there.


The Galaxy is supposed to have a top speed of around 188 km/h, if I'm correct. That would mean approximately 195 km/h according to the speedometer. But it also depends on the route and other factors. So many questions and so many unknowns.

The 180 km/h speed was achieved on a flat surface, with no headwind, and under normal loading conditions. It's already clear that I don't reach my full speed when going uphill or into the wind.

Okay, so, who here is familiar with performance charts?

Dieter.

Hi,

The panel was inserted incorrectly, and the performance curve starts at approximately -8 kW. This means the traction power is ~22 kW, which is within the normal range. However, it's all still within the permissible range because the total output remains the same at 98 kW.

Is the fuel venting system working correctly, ensuring that enough fuel reaches the engine even when driving at full throttle for extended periods?
Are the rear wheels spinning freely?

Best regards, Rainer.

Rear wheels are free. I had an inspection a week ago, and during that, the front and rear brakes were serviced. I assume that would have been noticed if there was a problem. Furthermore, I believe that if something had been malfunctioning for a few months, it would have already 'completely broken down' by now – I drive between 7,000 and 10,000 kilometers per month...

Fuel vent: Good point, I'll have it checked.

Dieter.

You can check this yourself, even without jeopardizing your lease agreement. Simply release the fuel filler cap and then drive. Perhaps not when the tank is completely full... and only for checking purposes. To my knowledge, neither reading the error memory nor logging measurement data in any way jeopardizes a leasing agreement.

Following a suggestion from Matthias, I read out the data.

The following values were obtained:
According to the software, the maximum speed is 180 km/h at 3612 RPM. The speedometer indicates 190 km/h, but this was measured going downhill!

Measurements at idle:
deviating from the nominal values.
Block 3, Field 3, air mass is: 436, target value 210-350.

What else I've noticed is:
Block 13 Speed Limiter.
Cylinder 1, 0.25.
Cylinder 2, 3, page 012-014.
Cylinder 4 -0.45
Target values from -2.8 to +2.8.

I have been able to measure fuel injection volume and torque limitation so far -> OK, then the laptop battery ran out.

I don't have much experience with data interpretation myself. Can anyone offer me some help?

PS: I haven't been able to check the fuel vent yet, the car is completely full.

Thank you - Dieter.

dieterpapa wrote:

Measurements at idle: deviating from the nominal values. Block 3, Field 3, air mass is: 436, target value 210-350

target value 210-350 probably comes from a label file and only provides a rough estimate.

The key is the comparison between the current target and actual values, which are fields 2 and 3:
If there's a consistent, significant deviation from the norm in the EGR system, something is wrong with it... it could be defective and/or stuck.
It may then also not function correctly under full load (sometimes) -> potential loss of power.

Quote:

Block 13 Running Regulator. Cylinder 1, 0.25. Cylinder 2, 3, page 012-014. Cylinder 4 -0.45 Set points from -2.8 to +2.8

. That still looks harmless.

Is he getting enough fuel?

"Out of curiosity, I have a question for the experts. Is it normal for the torque curve to be at its maximum..." Is the area very wavy?

Shouldn't all four PD elements always be replaced at the same time? How long do they actually last?

Greetings, Peter.

@ulf:
The data comes from the setpoint list available in this forum.
Actual data from today:
Air mass: 290.
Air mass: 436

@Peter
I haven't heard from you in a long time .

Dieter.

AGR????

@Dieterpapa

It's been a loooooooooong time .

AGR????



But why does that piece of junk then show full power on the test bench????

Ford is now referring to the test bench diagram.

Dieter.

Well, I guess we'll have to wait for a comment from the real experts.

Greetings, Peter.

Bekommt er denn genug Sprit???

Aus Interesse eine Frage an die Profis. Ist es normal, das die Drehmomentlinie im max. Bereich so wellig ist??


es ist ja eine leistungskurve und kein drehmomentdiagramm - könnte man aber zurückrechnen
was mir auffällt ist, dass der motor ziemlich bald eine hohe leistung erziehlt - dann diese aber lange gleich bleibt und erst im letzten moment nochmals ansteigt. eine steigende leistungskurve wäre normalerweise wesentlich besser für beschleunigungsfahrten - normale 130er leistungsdiagramme sehen anders aus - allerdings weiß ich nicht was ford für ein kennfeld programmiert bekommt^^ - aber chancen bei ford wirst du wohl gar keine haben mit solch einem diagramm da erstens darauf bestätigt wird dass der motor seine leistung hat und zweitens diese prüfstände keine wirkliche aussagekraft haben, wie genau oder ob richtig gemessen wurde
- genaue auskünfte gibt es immer nur bei einem motorenprüfstand - also motor im ausgebauten zustand - und selbst hier läuft man gefahr dem motto: wer misst misst mist

[Translating...]

Ford und VW PD Motoren. Da kann man leicht eine Zeitlang im Kreis reparieren. Verdächtig ist, das er nach dem Turboumbau mal eine Woche orginal Leistung hatte. Die sollen testweise mal ein neues AGR Ventil einbauen und die Verschlauchung/Ansteuerung prüfen. Ist weit preiswerter als Turbos und PD Elemente auf Verdacht zu tauschen. Würd vieleicht am Wochenende mal ein Blech dazwischenlegen und testen... Marderschaden in der Verschlauchung ist auch noch eine Möglichkeit.

Mit freundlichem Gruß
Christian

[Translating...]Hallo Chris,

es gibt aber folgendes Problem:

- das Auto ist in der Gewährleistung
- die Werkstatt schraubt nur, wenn Ford dafür zahlt
- selberschrauben ist auch nicht, da Leasingauto......

Dieter