General utility of PD oil instead of 505.00?

Hello,

TDIs, with their high torque, encourage drivers to stay in the lower RPM range as much as possible, and also to accelerate frequently.
According to the knowledge passed down from our fathers and grandfathers, earlier generations of engines would have quickly failed because the lubrication of the bearings was insufficient due to a lack of oil pressure.

While modern engines and oils, according to the manufacturers' explanations, no longer present this as a problem, the oil pressure gauge in my old Golf (AFN) showed a meager 1 bar at idle when the engine was hot (compared to ~7 bar after a cold start), and this was already happening from the moment it was installed, with a then-mileage of approximately 10,000 km.
This then prompted me to avoid using the full torque at engine speeds below ~1500 rpm when the engine is hot, and to sometimes downshift even when it seems "unnecessary."

The problem, as far as I know, is that the thin layer of hot oil is forced out from between the sliding surfaces due to high bearing loads, if the supply of oil isn't constantly replenished at the appropriate rate and pressure.

This problem is particularly pronounced in vane pumps, where extreme forces are transmitted to the pump pistons, especially in the higher speed range. As far as I know, the small bearing surfaces (roller bearings, ball bearings, etc.) that are subjected to these forces are not even lubricated with oil pressure, but only by oil splashing around.

"With these high pressures, standard 505.00 TDI oil is forced away, causing the sliding surfaces to run dry (partially/temporarily?). This was a cause of the widespread injector failures, even with a healthy timing chain, because many workshops didn't yet understand that these TDI engines require a special type of oil that is viscous and shear-stable enough to ensure lubrication even under these extreme conditions."

According to my understanding, PD oil should also provide greater reserves throughout the rest of the engine to, for example, lubricate the crankshaft and connecting rod bearings under maximum load and low oil pressure.
With this, PD engines and other engines that "unnecessarily" receive PD oil may perform better in terms of lubrication at full throttle from idle speed when the engine is hot, compared to other engines... ?

Daher überlege ich, in unseren ALH-Ibiza beim nächsten Mal auch PD-Öl (die VP-Norm 505.00 ist mit enthalten) reinzukippen, denn auch meine bessere Hälfte fährt in "bester" TDI-Manier auf Drehmoment und über 1700 rpm fast nur, wenn sie schon im 5. Gang is.
You can now find 5 liters of the 505.01 brand oil at hardware stores for "only" 32 euros, while my previous 505.00 fully synthetic 5W40 oil from the same brand costs about 44 euros.

Question to the group:
Is my theory correct, or do the specially engineered properties of PD oils offer no benefits or increased lubrication reserves in the rest of the engine?


BTW:
After a cold start, you can clearly hear the lifters ticking on the AFN and ALH engines until they are fully filled with oil (505.00).
However, the ASZ (presumably a type of engine component) has absolutely no such "break-in" phase. Could this also be due to the PD oil, which remains "stuck" in the lubrication points for longer, and therefore potentially provides better lubrication overall during cold starts?

Hello!

Regarding the clicking sounds:

The hydraulic lifters in my car definitely make a rattling noise for a short period (max. 2 seconds) after a cold start (after being parked overnight). The engine is filled with PD oil (Castrol Longlife II).
In the PD cars I drove, the hydrostatics always made a rattling noise.

Regards,

Rudi.

PS: What's the name of the hardware store? Is the manufacturer Liqui Moly? The cheapest I've seen in a store so far is a liter for €15.95. Of course, it's cheaper online.

delvos wrote:

P.S. What is the name of the hardware store? Is the manufacturer Liqui Moly?

For example, Globus and Hela in Saarbrücken. Manufacturer: correctly typed, but 505.01 = not a long-life oil!
LM 506.01 Longlife costs significantly more, around 60 euros (so far only seen at hela) -> roughly the same price as a 505.01 from a well-known, expensive brand with a racing image, which, as far as I know, is only a distributor without its own refineries...

I'm buying OMV Full SYN EXTRA, which meets the 506.01 standard, for about €7 per liter. I admit that's a special price. Normally, the same oil at an OMV gas station costs €18. This once again shows the price range for motor oil.

I'm using 506.01 oil in my ACV (Longlife) engine, with a maximum mileage of 20,000 km, due to the installed chip.

"Longlife oil can bind significantly more dirt and soot particles than other oils. Therefore, it's definitely an advantage for modified vehicles that produce a slightly higher amount of soot."

Just a quick question. I'm getting confused. Is 505.00 = TDI, 505.01 = PD but without Longlife, and 506.01 = Longlife for PD and TDI? Or have I got something wrong?

Greetings, Peter.

Mc_Givertechnik wrote:

505.00 = TDI, 505.01 = PD aber ohne Longlife und 506.01 = Longlife für PD und TDI, oder hab ich da jetzt was verdreht.

No, that's correct.

Hello Ulf,

Regarding your theories about the higher reserve of PD oil, I unfortunately don't have the time to delve into the specific data and provide any insights.
However, you still have incorrect ideas about a plain bearing (we've discussed this before). The pressure plays a minor role. The lubricating film that supports the load is formed by the relative movement between the parts. The bearing, so to speak, almost "sucks" the oil in as soon as it starts to rotate. And 1000 RPM is not a low speed from this perspective.
"In TDIs, the engine blocks are generally made of gray cast iron. This means that there is very little change in the bearing clearance/bearing bore, and therefore in the oil flow through the bearing, even when the engine is hot. There are other engines, especially those with aluminum engine blocks, where this is a much more critical issue."

Best regards,
Albrecht.

Hi,

I can also confirm the rattling sound of the hydraulic lifters in my ASZ engine. After the first oil change (using low-viscosity oil), it was gone for a while, but now, after about 2,500 km, it's back to being like it was before, occurring about 2 seconds after a cold start.

Regarding the theory about the high viscosity of 50601, I can only say that, for example, Castrol highlights the property of REDUCED High Temperature High Shear (HTHS) viscosity of 3.0 on its website for PD oils ...
http://www.castrol.de/schmierstoffe/3_viskositaeten/viskositaeten_3.html
http://www.castrol.de/schmierstoffe/2_motorenoel_klass/m_klassifikation_2.html (at 2.1.3)

Albrecht wrote:

The pressure plays a minor role. The supporting lubricating film is formed by the relative movement between the parts. The bearing, so to speak, almost sucks the oil in as soon as it rotates. And 1000 RPM is not a small number from this perspective.

Okay... so, the oil pressure only needs to be sufficient to overcome the height difference between the oil pan and the camshaft, and then the lubrication is ensured?
Estimation: A 0.5-meter column of oil is approximately equal to 0.04 bar.

ulf wrote:

Okay... so, the oil pressure only needs to be sufficient to overcome the height difference between the oil pan and the camshaft, and then the lubrication is ensured?

Almost. Of course, there are also frictional resistances. Furthermore, the oil outlets should ideally be designed as throttling bores, so that if there is a localized damage, not all areas are left without oil. However, the fundamental principle is that the oil pump only needs to pump as much oil as the shaft draws into the lubrication gap.

However, PD oil might be a good option for the V6 community, given their known issues with NW (presumably referring to a specific problem).

Hello fellow mechanics,

das Klappern der Hydros nach dem Kaltstart dürfte mit dem Oel nix zu tun haben, denn wenn die Hydros unter Druck stehen, verschließen sie nicht hundertprozentig. Der Druck der geöffneten Ventile bei stehendem Motor entleert die Hydros, so das Sie beim Starten erst wieder gefüllt werden und das Ventilspiel optimal ausgleichen. Ist auch deutlich zu hören wenn die Motoren viele KM gefahren sind. Da) The clicking sound can sometimes last for 10 seconds, which is often due to the fact that the leakage rate of the hydraulic components is higher.

In my AFB's operating manual, it states that the oil must meet specifications 505.000 AND 505.001, even though it has a VP44 and not a PD. Previously, it was written that 505.001 = PD .

Best regards, Manuel.

Hello Ulf!

I first have to say, I'm impressed. There are actually some real experts here.

We have Castrol as a sponsor, which means I'm heavily involved in the design of our engines.

Generell fördert die Ölpumpe keinen Druck, sondern nur einen Volumenstrom. Der Druck, der entsteht, stellt sich ein, weil im Motor ein Gegendruck vorhanden ist. (sämtliche Schmierstellen, Ecken und Kanten im Ölkreislauf). Es muss lediglich gewähleistet sein, dass die letzte Schmiersttelle im Ölkreislauf (oftmals das letzte NW Lager) einen ausreichenden Volumenstrom Öl zugeführt bekommt. Das The interpretation criterion in this case is hot idle. (This is less relevant for our engines.)

The pressure within the plain bearings is established by the relative movement of the components, but a defined clearance is required to allow the oil to be 'displaced like a wedge.' This creates a pressure that must be at least as high as the opposing pressure (e.g., cylinder pressure). Otherwise, the bearing will be crushed.

Regarding the oil and the maintenance intervals:

The main problem with diesel engines is that the oil needs to keep soot particles suspended for as long as possible – until the next oil change. This is the key feature of modern oils. A significant change in viscosity only occurs if the oil is not handled correctly. That's why dynamic change intervals are used, which depend on the driving style.


My tip: Short trips are harmful to any engine, so try to avoid them as much as possible! (I stick to the long-life maintenance intervals, but I only drive long distances and on the highway.)

Regards,

Wolfgang.

Hello, back to the topic: Does anyone know what is special about PD oils according to the VW xxx.01 standard? So far, I've only heard this:

On the Castrol website, for PD oils, the property of REDUCED High Temperature High Shear (HTHS) viscosity, specifically HTHS 3.0, is highlighted.


Funny, funny... (I have some bottles of 0w30 505.00 oil lying around here, and I'm wondering whether to put it in the engine instead of 505.01).

xxx01 oils perform better under the high surface pressures exerted on the PD (positive displacement) elements. Therefore, each engine requires the oil that meets its specific standard.

I would like to draw your attention to this particular statement from Shell:

Because the Volkswagen Group wants to reduce the fuel consumption of its engines, it requires a High-Temperature High-Shear (HTHS) value of less than 3.5 mPas in the internal VW 506 01 standard. Lubricant manufacturers and engine designers must work closely together to ensure that this low-viscosity oil still provides sufficient separation between the metal surfaces in the bearings. And to make the task even more challenging, the engine oil should also change only slightly in its properties within a period of two years or up to 30,000 kilometers.

perwollf wrote:

.... Funny, funny.....(I have some bottles of 0w30 505.00 lying around here, and I'm wondering whether to put it in the engine instead of 505.01)

Of course, you would also fill a car that is only designed for Super Plus gasoline with regular gasoline, because you don't understand the "octane" rating and regular gasoline is so much cheaper. Then, after xx,000 kilometers, you'll be surprised by a burned-out piston or a burned-out valve, and you won't want to associate it with the fuel.

Put in the 505.00 and use the money you saved to buy a new cylinder head right away.

Hi everyone,

Okay, I'll start from the very beginning:

@Roger:

Quote:

Regarding the theory about the high viscosity of the 50601, I can only say that, among other things, Castrol highlights the property of REDUCED High Temperature High Shear (HTHS) viscosity of 3.0 on its website for PD oils...

The HTHS value has nothing to do with surface pressure. These are two distinct properties. (The "S" in "HTHS" stands for "shear force" in German: shear force. Shear force and pressure load are unrelated.)

@Manuel V:

Quote:

In the operating manual for my AFB, it states that the oil must meet specifications 505.000 AND 505.001, even though it's a VP44 and not a PD.

Previously, it was written that 505.001 = PD.

Quote:

Please double-check the service manual to see exactly what it says. Regardless, I'm sure it doesn't mention "505.001" or "505.000". As far as I know, these standards are not used by either VW or any other car manufacturer. @Knubbi: Thanks for your statement about the oil particles needing to be suspended in the oil. That's actually a better quality indicator than the manufacturer's name!

A significant change in viscosity only occurs in the oil if it is improperly handled:wink:.
Ja und nein. Bei Ölen nach ACEA A3/B3 hast Du recht. Die VW-Longlife-Öle mit 506.01 und 506.00 haben allerdings einen verringerten HTHS-Wert von unter 3,5. Diese Öle sind leider nicht besonders scherstabil, so dass sich deren Viskosität sehr wohl ändert. (Diese Eigenschaft haben die "supermodernen" VW-LL-Öle von den uralten Gammelölen übernommen.

Quote:

) @perwollf:

If you use high-quality base oils and appropriate additives, you can achieve an oil film with lower HTHS values that does not collapse under pressure.

Quote:

Again: Don't confuse shear and pressure! Regarding additives and base oil: A motor oil based on a good base oil needs fewer (wear-inducing) additives and therefore ages more slowly.

So, and now here are some opinions from other forums, which seem to come from "experts":
Please provide the text you would like me to translate from German to English.
I'm not entirely sure whether you can use an oil with a higher HTHS in an engine that was designed for an oil with a lower HTHS.

Quote:

If the quotes actually came from experts, they would know the answer. (And not because they memorized it, but because they understood what it was about.)

soll sich das Motoröl auch noch innerhalb eines Zeitraums von zwei Jahren oder bis zu 30.000 Kilometer nur unwesentlich in seinen Eigenschaften ändern.

Quote:

Please correct: It should say: "Up to 50,000 km" ("Up to" always indicates the theoretically achievable upper limit. For VW diesel engines, this is 50,000 km).

It is claimed that HTHS low-viscosity oils could even damage older engines.
Wenn der Motor alt genug ist, macht es ihm nichts. Er muss eben nur aus einer Zeit stammen, in welcherdie A1/B1 noch aktuell war. }

@Ulf: The shear stability decreases with increasing temperature. (Whether it's a PD oil or not is completely irrelevant; we're talking about shear stability, not pressure stability.) This means: An oil with a shear stability of 3.5 mPa*s at 150°C is more shear-stable than an oil with the same temperature but a shear stability of 3.6 mPa*s.

@Bertil: Laugh. (Not at you, but with you.) Speaking of octane rating, I'm still surprised that the engines react so strongly to different octane levels. After all, modern engines have knock sensors and other features, and the octane rating is measured in a standard single-cylinder engine without knock control.
But you are absolutely right about the oil: you shouldn't try to save money in the wrong places here. (Although expensive doesn't always mean good, and cheap doesn't always mean bad!)

@Roger: Why did you pray?
Regarding oil for a PD engine: If you want to use LL (Longlife) oil, then use oil that meets the 506.01 specification. If not, use oil that meets the 505.01 specification. You can also use 506.01 oil and change it every 15,000 km, but that's not very economical due to the price.

Regards,
Sure, here is the translation of the text from German to English:

"Micha"